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Proposal for an update...
| Name | {{{Name}}} | |
|---|---|---|
| Briefing | {{{Briefing}}} | |
| Instructions | {{{Instruction}}} | |
| Rewards |
None | |
Yes...no.......maybe?
It looks good, but how would the template look if one of the reward parameters is missing? Will it be obvious that the exp box is for exp and the gold box is for gold?
Talking it over with my guild about any possible ideas/changes they may have. We suggest making the other rewards section invisible unless the quest specifically has other rewards, and in that case, give other rewards more room based on how many other rewards. Since the finals of some gens can give a title, a weapon or item, personas, AP, base stats, etc. It's gonna be a bit long.
I would think so yes. I could lump exp and gold in one box and item rewards in the other...
I just wanted to make a box for everything...could do it in separate rows but I have no idea how to make something invisible o.e
Updated it...yes...no...maybe? though if blank, people could put a hyphen (-) or maybe leave it blank or put "N/A."
If you want. I just made it as a proposal. I'm somewhat satisfied with it...just need to move one thing on it.
Okay, here is my model. Main differences is that the Other Rewards parameter is hidden if it is unused, and the layout of the top and bottom parameters are rearranged. (I put two quests to show with and without extra rewards. The bottom one looks long because the instructions are.) Though I don't really like how it turned out, if anyone can think of a completely different layout than the way either of our or the existing templates look, I'd like to see it.
I've been trying to figure out how to hide it. I'm so bad at these things o.e
Does it have to look so...squished...?
Well...I got my up and satisfied...how to make it partially hidden is beyond me @.@
What I did was put style="display:none;" before the ! and |. If you want the entire section to disappear if unused, put it after the |-. If you don't remove the entire section, you will probably need to further add if equations for the colspan amount like I did. Feel free to look at this page's coding for an example.
You can find mine in my Sandbox...
I've been wanting to see an update for this template!
I don't know if the rewards needs to be separated into 3 different sections. A bulleted list could work instead.
Also, do you all think the "NPC" section is important? I always thought it was a waste of space since NPCs will be mentioned in the Information section anyway. If that's removed, the "Name" section doesn't need to be there either because the header should be the quest's name anyway. If the NPCs are kept, I kind of like where Pyrus put it in his example.
I don't know, I only kept it because it seems that it's on every other page. A bulleted list could work for rewards. could probably replace the NPC part, don't see the need for the NPC box imo.
Tried replacing the NPC part with rewards.. some get quite lengthy. and it looks bad. It should stay at the bottom. It's doable as a bullet list.
There is one more thing, and I'm not entirely sure how to do but the original template seems to do it, but the width of the template isn't limited (not sure if we want to limit it). So it'd stretch to fit the entire page.
ರ_ರ．．．。
What exactly is the point of the Information part of the tables currently? I've been storing everything in the instruction subullets. The only time I actually use it right now is when you get teleported somewhere before doing the first quest requirement in the first quest.
The point is (or was) to not stray from the original template, but rather expand from it. I've consdered dropping "Breifing" entirely, but still waiting on more input than just...well you, info, and occasionally angevon. I've forwarded this to others but considering it's...4:30am...yeah...just gonna have to wait til later to see. May forward in IRC when it's populated later.
Looking at how I've use these the past few years...
Briefing: what led up to it (only up to the previous part to avoid too much text)
Information: your objective
Instructions: what you're supposed to (or not supposed to) do
So I'd say all 3 are necessary.
-edit-
I took a look at the code and cleaned it up a bit. You can see it here. Ignore the table underneath it. I just didn't feel like making another sandbox page >_>
I don't think the NPC section is important since the NPC will be mentioned in the instructions, anyway.
True, especially since now you don't need to know about which npcs are involved ahead of time (for time-management purposes), what with the moon gates and mana tunnels always being open. I've removed the npc section from the version in my sandbox, but also added a warning section. The point of which is to give readers a heads up of things that might not seem obvious, or is glitched at the moment. i.e. pets that are summoned during the cutscene will take damage, if *insert npc* dies, the mission fails, if *insert monster* is hit by *insert skill*, the boss may glitch and require the dungeon/SM to be restarted. The information will be repeated later on, but it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a section specifically for what you shouldn't do.
I don't understand why things like that cannot be in instruction. It'd seem annoying to have to look at another section for information on the shadow mission or boss or something.
You're reading it wrong. It'd appear in 2 sections; once in the warnings section (along with other warnings), and again in the instructions (make it hidden with spoiler tags, whatever).
The point of that section is to tell readers to keep a few things in mind as they continue to read on. Not everyone reads it from start to finish before going through with the quest. ie, G16 final, where there's a chance where you'll have to restart the run. It might be nice to know that before you run it and waste everyone's time. Redundant? Maybe. Will it save headaches for people later? More than likely.
But let me make this more clear: that section isn't for minor things like "Don't use range on Tabhartas". It's more for things like that example I gave with g16, so there should only be, at max, maybe 3 lines passed to the template for any given quest.
Yeah could drop NPC box since it well...right there in the objectives. I'm still contemplating on Breifing, since it's more text to be found and inputted I'm not sure if it would look cleaner, or cluttery after all the briefing is gathered.
Lexis, do you mind if I clean the template code in your sandbox? It won't affect the table's appearance.
Well, assuming you're going to visit the page because you're on that part of the generation quest, a briefing would be redundant since you should already know what's going on, and are more than likely reading up on it to know what to do, not how the story goes. Besides, reading the information of the quest that came before it technically would count as a briefing.
Personally, I don't think briefing should be removed/not added, but I don't think it should be open by default for spoiler purposes. We could add a hide/show to its parameter.
The NPC section isn't really needed I guess.
The Image section could be hidden, but I don't don't think it should be removed, in particular, for G13+ where the quest window displays an associated NPC at the corner.
Okay now...
Where the template code actually is.
Where it's being used 3 times; once with all params filled, second with minimal parameters, and the 3rd being taken directly from the current g16 final template
If you ask me, this looks good except I would like to make three changes.
- The width should be controlled, to about the size of this quest's width. That way it won't be too wide or narrow on most resolutions, and it won't also stretch to fill the screen. This is just my personal preferred though, I think the template's release should have priority over this.
- The experience, ducat, and gold reward parameters should be merged into the same box, only disclude other rewards that quests give.
- I'd also make the information box go away if that parameter is empty.
I'm not sure how if feel about warnings...I'd state them as it comes, right before all the onslaught of information, sorta like how I cleaned up Generation 2's page... If it's a big warning, then it could be lumped with information :x.
I updated my proposal to do just that. Also it auto-hides Information is there is none to be said. I also fixed the width to 768. Didn't bother with colors yet but ehh, I just left it as is for now. can always be changed :s
I also fixed a major error that causes some weird funky stuff. It looks a lot cleaner now.
Updated to hide everything but an empty name, briefing and instruction parameter. I know about the size issue with the 3rd example, but I'll deal with that after the midterm I'm about to write :x.
Should it hide the rewards section if there are no rewards (what a crappy quest >_>) or have it display the section, but with just the words "none" in it?
The updated version is below.
| Name | {{{Name}}} | |
|---|---|---|
| Briefing | {{{Briefing}}} | |
| Instructions | {{{Instructions}}} | |
| Rewards |
None | |
This template looks so much better than the old one. As for rewards, I'd say have it display "none".
Might be cool, but is there really a need for images in the template if it's just going to be pictures of items you receive and use in the quests? Sometimes the picture is just the same item in the next 4 quest boxes in a row. That seems silly to me. A gallery would be cool for shown images in game. (Read most posts, but might have missed one or two)
Keep in mind that the whole discussion is about changing the template, which means do NOT use the current one (along with the pages that use the template) as a side-by-side comparison to the one that is being worked on. I don't find a point in including item images in general, but that's what they did when they set up the pages at the time.
I thought the point was to improve it...Not change it to what 1 user thinks. Majority of the people I've talked to that use the wiki said that the images help. It centralizes what the quest was about (apparently) and who is the main NPC to talk to/Main NPC of the quest. I personally found it useful myself. I will admit this...the image boxes should be able to commedate large amounts images such as THIS!
Lexis, if the above post wasn't directed at me, then ignore the next bit. When I said that the whole point was to change the template, it should be obvious that the change I'm referring to is supposed to be for the better. How exactly am I changing it to what one person thinks? Again, if it wasn't directed at me, ignore this.
Here's a more practical usage of my new template. Commence Discussion.
Looks fine, but I think that if you're going to include items in the image area, they should only be the ones that are "important" to advancing the storyline. (This isn't an issue with the new usage you most recently showed, but more so with the link to that g10 quest you showed earlier. Only bringing this up now to answer a question that I'm sure someone is going to inevitably ask.) For this g10 quest, only the actual clues should be shown since they're key to advancing the plot. The alchemy suit and the like shouldn't be included.
I think that Lexis' version is now perfect, assuming it looks fine in smaller resolution screens as well as large.
One comment on the image discussion, do we want to separate the G13+ NPC portrait section and the item image section? Or should we include both in the same field? I'm not clear on what to do with that as I am currently working on writing the pages for Drama/Saga 2.
Item + NPC? Hardly any NPCs image showed up in G13~16. Did you mean G17 and onward? If items exist, exclude NPCs and vice versa.
Er, I did G13-16 a long time ago, but I am pretty sure NPC images showed up in G13-16. Remember when you open a quest and there is a smaller version of an NPC portrait in the top left corner of the quest scroll? Those, which I personally use as frames of references to search through quests in a mainstream (like how you suggested people do with item images). So what you're saying is, if there is an NPC portrait use the items, and if there are items, use the NPC portrait? Every G13+ quest has a NPC portrait. The only quests that don't are skill quests, event quests, and some raid quests. (Though I think most of them have that Town Guard NPC? Not sure.) What should be done if there is both? (If the quest DOESN'T have an image in the top left, which so far hasn't happened, I don't include the NPC image, the NPC image isn't just of a random NPC used in the quest.)
Oh you mean in the quest briefing? We could just leave that out. It's basically who assigned the quest to you. but if you want, we could incorporate it into the briefing.
But it also helps distinguish the difference between different quests, not just items. Especially since most of these new saga quests seem to only have items inside shadow missions, if any items at all. How would you incorporate it into the briefing? Personally, I think it should be somewhere in there, and not left out. But I just want to know where I should put it.
Kettle...black...8D...
Ok serious now. Should I add my parsing code into your template?
o-o go ahead. (cleaning talk notifications lol @@)
also Generation 9 is a good example where NPC names exceed anything else in a couple instances. Though everything after g10's page simply has it listed with commas :s...
While we're still discussing this (if we still are), we need a doc page for this template.
What does creating a documentation page have to do with editing a protected template? As far as I can tell, the quest template doesn't even have a doc page for itself, so one should be made anyway.
You're still missing my point o-o...I'm saying to create it (doesn't matter where), not stick it into the current template.
Why the unnecessary white spaces before and after the equal signs if it doesn't even align the equal signs up?
Edit: I am not sure if I am allowed to edit your page, but the usage example says Exploration without an equal sign, and the parameter explanations just says Explore.
Thanks for pointing that out (that's what happens when you create a page at 5am and don't bother proof-reading before submitting later).
No, you don't have permission to edit my page. As for the white spaces, while it doesn't affect the page, it's not "unnecessary" either. In the past, people have had issues reading templates whennospaceswereusedatall, despite the code not being that lengthy.
If you have ot use white spaces, then why not use them for their original purpose, like this:
{{MainStreamQuest
|Image1 = [[File:insert_file_name.png|50px]]
|Name =
|Briefing =
|Instruction =
That feels more readable to me.
By that logic, why not just do
{{MainStreamQuest
|Image1= [[File:insert_file_name.png|50px]]
|Name=
|Briefing=
|Instruction=
What I'm trying to say, is that you're missing a very obvious point that I've been making.
What's the difference in output between the code on my subpage with the documentation, the one that you typed in the above post, and the retarded looking pyramid I typed earlier in this reply? Absolutely nothing; it's a matter of personal preference and being consistent. You could even call the template from one line like this:
{{MainStreamQuest||Image1= [[File:insertimg.png|50px]]||Name=name||Briefing=briefing||Instruction=instruction|}and it would still work.
Oh and...this topic came up in the past. That format you typed it in is considered difficult to read by some too, so it can't just be based on your opinion of what is and isn't easy to read.
Personally I'd rather have just breaks at the ends, rather than '|'s, and no whitespaces, though that all depends on what the writer wants and if any rules are set place beforehand. What I'm asking is, whay space-equal-space specifically? Isn't that also just based on opinion as well?
So I have a question about one of the template parameters names (another argument about how the code looks, I know), both the current mainstream template and yours use {{{Image1}}}, we're not planning on adding another image parameter are we? If not, should we remove the random 1?
We still haven't put this into fruition?!