Talk:Commerce

it seems like every several hours, there's a scrolling announcement to indicate there's a large bounty between 70k and 500k to be obtained for hunting down the respective outlaw but the page has no info on this "feature"

See Outlaw Pursuit]

I wonder, if carrying different items, what items are stolen first? Is it random or is it the most/least expensive.... For that matter, if you're carrying expensive items (like bunk beds) and inexpensive items, would you lose a bunk bed that would put you above the 25% lost goods ratio or just the cheaper items?

I ask because if this is clear, it might be possible to just let the bandits steal 25% and not have to worry about them the whole way, especially if the stolen 25% is something insanely cheap.

Will test soon and report back.

Additionally the 25% cargo loss is not clear if the loss is in ducat value or number of items, or even weight....

Will let some stuff be stolen and find out.

Among stuff stolen so far, approximately 24% of the number of items stolen before max and 25.4% of weight was stolen. Will test with lead or something heavy but cheap shortly.

Also, goods stolen, approximately the same number of each different item seems to be stolen but there might be a formula to determine what is stolen as the more expensive items were stolen in greater quantities.

At this point I"m just trying to determine if it is 25% of weight or 25% of number of items that are stolen.

Come to think of it, it might be that the items are stolen based on their weight to make the 25% closest to weight and number. Hmm but I can't see the whole picture right now.... need to math a bit more.

It was bugging me that I couldn't exactly reproduce the amount of ducats obtained from selling under the current 2xCommerce event, so I did some experimenting. I think I've got it now. There's was an unexpected round-down to integer in an intermediate step in the working, expressed below as "floor".

When you sell, and a small window pops up showing ducats, experience, etc earned, note that the numbers in parenthesis for ducats have been included in the previous number. For example, if it reports ducats are "62520 (+3384)", then you obtained a total of 62520 ducats for the sale, and that includes 3384 bonus arising from commerce mastery bonus and perhaps use of a letter of guarantee.

The simple formula for proceeds of sale is

Quantity * unit buy price + event bonus * floor(quantity * unit base profit * (1 + master bonus + letter of guarantee bonus))

Example: Bought 22 items. Buy price = 2374. Sell price showing on trade window = 2531. So base profit per unit is 2531 - 2374 = 157. My commerce mastery bonus is 9%. Goblin letter of guarantee gives 40% bonus on trade goods. We currently have a 2 x commerce event. This gives the sales proceeds as

22 * 2374 + 2 * floor(22 * 157 * (1+9%+40%)) = 22 * 2374 + 2 * 5146 = 62520

An alternative equivalent formula is

Quantity * (unit buy price + event bonus * unit base profit) + event bonus * floor(quantity * unit base profit * (master bonus + letter of guarantee bonus))

For the example, this gives

22 * (2374 + 2 * 157) + 2 * floor(22 * 157 * (9%+40%)) = 22 * 2688 + 2 * 1692 = 59136 + 3384 = 62520

This form better matches the numbers reported in the window that pops up to report the results of the sale, which listed the ducats result as "62520 (+3384)"

When the event is over, we presumably just replace the 2 by 1 in the above. If not using a letter of guarantee, replace the 40% by zero. I've only tested with Goblin's letter of guarantee, and with no letter of guarantee. It would be good if someone with a different type of letter of guarantee could verify. It would also be good if it could be tested by someone with a different commerce master bonus.

So the wiki has Wool Boots, sold in Dunby, listed as requiring merchant rating level 2 in Dunby, however I'm only level 1 and they are available for purchase.

I'll have to do some experimentation but it seems if a bandit is frozen their stars are reset and will start stealing again, however I don't know if it adds onto the original 5% they would steal or just resets it. This happened specifically with a Master Human Bandit Boss, and a Master Goblin Bandit, however the goblin started attacking me while the bandit boss went for my goods. The timer ran out while I was finishing off the bandit boss and I lost 3 Bunk Beds, I had a elephant full of them, which I think was 26? I don't remember exactly but that would put it at about 8% of my goods, and the Bandit master only had 1 star at the time and all the rest of the bandits were dead. I may be misunderstanding how the math works though.

Doesn't this happen with hydra as well?

I read a little bit about that, apparently Hydra does not give you the trade goods back if it kills them, but I haven't experimented with it, so I don't know for 100%.

Under Bug Fixes in today's Rejuvenogi update announcement:

• "Resolved an issue with stolen trade goods disappearing after defeating a bandit with the Hydra Transmutation skill."

So, not anymore, apparently.

Oftentimes during commerce my character suddenly warps backward several feet into the path I was heading to. This frequently puts me into ambushes, then displaces me from my mount and thus preventing me from remounting it and forcing me to log off in order to continue. This happens on both the horse wagon and elephant, and I'm wearing the Alpaca Robe.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

Yes, it sucks and I hate it.

As far as I know, there's no way to avoid or fix it that doesn't involve losing goods.

http://mabinogi.nexon.net/Community/forums#%2Fshowthread.php%3F1336140-Commerce-Question%26p%3D11187738%23post11187738

Possible remedy?

Note: this was originally a reply to this thread.

I know this doesn't really have to do with the glitch, but what were you commercing that gave you Master bandits? I never see them.

She said bunk beds. Master Bandits are actually extremely common with the fourth item down from the top when using the elephant or wagon (the same map where the goods were picked up will usually result masters).

Since when?!

The only time I've seen Master is if I take the expensive item to the other side of the world...

What server is this?

Since all the time and in every server.

The more expensive your items get, the more likely masters are going to show up.

I've never seen Master bandits out the gate with Bunk Beds...

Are you even using the elephant/wagon?

Yes.

I'll go ahead and get a little more specific on that point. I got Bunk Beds(9680~12320 ducats) from Tara, and I ran into the bandits on the far east side of Sen Mag heading to Bangor. I haven't had a chance to experiment more with my glitch though, but I'm defiantly going to do it with lower quality goods, with stacks in good round numbers (like stacks of 50, 100 etc) so I'm not getting too weird of numbers when calculating what percentage of goods I've lost... Also Tarlach Server, but that wouldn't have any effect on whether or not Master Bandits spawn.

I don't recall anyone ever coming up with the complete formula for what type of bandit spawns. It involves the distance traveled and the item value, but for all we know it could also involve the item profit, buy price, or sell price, which (as far as I know) varies between servers.

Sen Mag is absurdly far from Tara, so I can see Master bandits spawning there. I still think you're crazy for casually fighting them, though.

When you say "(9680~12320 ducats)", I hope you aren't talking about the buy~sell price. That's insane if you are.

If you're really ridiculously strong, master bandits aren't that big of a deal. My best guess is that the total buy price and distance from original trade post determines the type of bandits spawned. Another plausible theory would be the total sell price at the nearest trade post determines the type of bandits spawned.

Also, for what it's worth, I think the buy price is the same across all servers, assuming players are at the same merchant rating. A higher merchant rating does give a 1~3% discount on the buy price.

The number of people who can fight Master Bandits like that are few and far between, and based on the fact that they got away, Sath is not one of them.

I lack any characters on other servers to test it, but a while back I kept track of all the people buying Lovely Potions. I came to the conclusion that each server had its own supply based on my success there.

Everyone who can do Outlaw hunting/pursuit, with certain ease, can handle Masters. Which isn't that small a number, you're underestimating the server as a whole.

Outlaw hunting doesn't cut your damage in half and prevent the use of pets.

with certain ease

Keywords.

I can handle Master bandits easily if it's not during commerce. It still takes me almost the entire time allowed to take down the Master Bandit bosses.

The number of people who are capable of handling them during commerce without any real risk isn't my point, regardless. My point is that Sath, the person who encountered them, isn't one of those people.

I personally wouldn't do as dangerous a route if there's such a risk of losing goods. Hence why I originally thought they were doing a shorter route and didn't need to worry about Master bandits (which lead to my question).

(Stupid pyramiding)

Just what are you encountering with Bunk Beds in Tara, Blago Prairie, or Corrib Valley?

Veteran Bandits.

What else?

This theory is made up of several key points, which come together for a very interesting... conclusion.

• Each item's cost at a trading post changes at a constant rate based on the amount of stock following a restock.
• All trading posts are restocked at the same time every 5~6 minutes.
• After every restock, the total number of non-limited items between all the items will equal a specific number, say 10 million.
• The amount each individual item restocks is some constant % of the total deficit.

As an example, let's say in one cycle the total number of available items was reduced by 10,000. If baby potions have a restock of 20%, then at the next restock, their stock will increase by 2000.

The "next step" from this theory is very simple: If all the "cheap" items are bought out (the ones that have inherently high stock), the "expensive" items (the ones with inherently low stock) will suddenly have much more stock. More stock means lower prices which means higher profits. Much higher profits.

For the record, this is no longer just a theory. If you do this:

• Trash all the Baby Potions (Tir Chonaill) and Heat Crystals (Tailteann) by buying them and then immediately cancelling.

Then you get the following benefits for days if not weeks:

• Increased EXP gained per trade (~50% more for many items).
• Greatly increased gold/ducats per trade (more than double the normal amount in most cases).
• Gain merchant rating significantly faster.

Optionally, trash Berry Granola (Emain Macha) and Cobh Seaweed (Cobh) as well for an increased effect.

This does come at the cost of several hours of time and over a million ducats to trash everything. I recommend doing this with a group of people.

So, I noticed this page is very large, and at the top are links to smaller pages containing subsets of information from the greater commerce page. Would it not be better to cut these out and simply reference them with a link at the appropriate time?

e.g. During commerce one may encounter bandits which will ambush the player. etc

I think it was to cut the amount of data in one page.

Another thing, it also puts the Table of Contents to shame...consider how close in proximity it is...e-e

Personally, I don't think it should be at the top, that's moreso for editors than viewers.

Considering the templates are linked elsewhere, it would be better to have it edit from where ever it originated instead of having 1 page being transcluded into several pages.

I think the Bandit and Pursuit should be on their own, just briefly mentioned here.

I agree with pursuit being separate, but not bandits.

• What happens when you try to use Alpaca? Only the Wagon will be available and all other transport methods are blocked?
• Alpaca doesn't lose summon time, but Commerce Partner still does?
• What happens while being raided with either summoned?

• If alpaca is summoned while starting trade, you get Wagon(Alpaca) and the other normal mounts available (but i didn't choose those because i wanted to see the alpaca).
• Alpaca is desummoned automatically once commerce begins, the partner is not.
• If you don't know what happens when raided with a commerce partner summoned then you should play the game more.

• It gives you an entirely new mount... and it gets unsummoned? What a weird and confusing function.
• I don't even have a commerce partner, and there's barely any commerce parties lately.

1. It replaces the Wagon option with Alpaca Wagon. You can still pick others.
2. Alpaca is forcibly desummoned after beginning transportation.
3. Same as always...Alpaca Cart/Wagon thingy is treated like a normal wagon. Commerce Partner just hops off and helps.
   • Also you can not have them both out in tandem.

Wait, since the Alpaca is desummoned, that means you cannot have it help you fight like you can with Commerce Partner?

Nope. Plus I doubt it could help you considering it's used like a horse for wagos.

Edit: I'm keeping it 'wagos'.

Since the commerce page is a giant wall of text, I'd like to point out a couple of things I've noticed while commercing.
Concerning the aggro: If you stand in place immediately after spawning the bandits, they will usually not aggro you until you attack or move.
This would give mages and alchs some time to charge whatever they want, like fireball or flame burst.
This is relatively difficult to pull off though, I find that I need to use the minimap or click straight into the spawn to pull it off.
Concerning damage over time: Damage over time that can kill monsters like Meteor Strike's residual damage or Hydra Transmutation will not remove stars, so killing them with either of those lets them get away with your goods whilst dead.

In the EXP reward formula. What is that?

...floor...sqrt...really?

Not everyone is a programmer. No need to be condescending.

Because anyone who's ever taken a math course is now a programmer.

Because you need to be a programmer to use Google/Wikipedia.

I would occasionally find that limited goods fail to restock on the 2-hour marks, or even 30 minutes before and after. The prices of them don't change at all throughout the entire time indicating that they're not simply being purchased instantly. Additionally, this appears to happen randomly, hours I have found them restocking I also find them not doing so at all. Has anyone encountered similar phenomena or can locate an exact cause?

And yes, I'm basing this off PST time.

I found a while ago that, every 2 hours items restock but one random hour a day is skipped for some reason. Is this what you've been noticing? I have not yet noticed multiple skipped double-hours per day yet.

I believe that's what it is, I haven't encountered it multiple times in a single day either though.
EDIT:
So does that confirm this as a fact? Or should it be considered a bug and put into the respective page(s)?

If it's a bug or intentional, idk. But I'd like more people confirming this before we include it anywhere.

It's an artifact of the way limited trade goods work.

The limited trade goods only restock from 0:00 to 0:05 every 2 hours. They restock at the same time as the normal goods within this time frame.

If, for whatever reason, no restock occurs in that time frame, the limited goods will not restock.

That brings up a question, why wouldn't normal goods restock then? They're already full?

Normal goods restock at MOST every 5 minutes. For reasons I don't know, it takes between 5 and 6 minutes from one restock to the next.

So one possible way is for this restock to occur at just the wrong time. Anything else that causes the restock to be delayed could cause this as well (like a server malfunction).

Late response to this edit, ingame uses just Commerce, not Commerce System, Ingame>Nexon NA. Would anyone reject me requesting a deletion of the Commerce redirect page then moving this there?

We could, though how I see it is that they're talking about commerce, but we're talking about its system.

Then let's put system at the end of every page's name. Talent System, Title System, etc. I may sound mocking but I'm serious, I'm super OCD about consistency. It has to be either all or nothing.

The Talent page has a lot about the system, but the titles page is essentially just a list of titles with very little of the page being about the system.

Eh I'm fine with the redirect. Release announcement called it "System" but meh.

"Even if you do have the right amount of Ducats to purchase the Transportation method, you must have at least an additional 1000 Ducats to purchase it, otherwise you would be left with little-to-no money." what does that even mean. You must have at least 1k ducats to... use it?

You need Ducats to buy goods in the first place, so technically, you would require 1K Ducats to use it.

Elephant = 350,000 D

Say you have 350,000 D. You would not be allowed to buy the mount, despite having the required number, because once you buy it, you would be unable to buy trade goods.

350,000 (inv) - 350,000 (ele) = 0 ducats left to spend.

Now say you had 351,000 D. You would be allowed because afterwards you would be able to afford trade goods.

351,000 (inv) - 350,000 (ele) = 1,000 ducats left to spend to make more ducats.

350,00?

I'm aware of that, but what I mean is you don't need 1k ducats to use it (trade goods), you could have like.. 50 or something. Yes you wouldn't be able to afford a whole lot but you would be able to afford SOMETHING. My question here is do you actually need 1k ducats, and nothing less, to use it, or is it just advice as in "hey you should remember that you need ducats to buy things so don't spend everything on these transportation vehicles".

The game won't let you buy the next transport method unless you have a certain minimum leftover afterward.

I think it's the lowest cost of the item at the post you're at.

or not. idk. 8D

Realistically, if you can't afford at least what you were able to carry before, you're doing it wrong.

How do you manage to dig up these old topics? e.e

You call 6 months old? That's just a drop in the bucket.

It's not like it's in the archives; it's just sitting in plain sight.

LiquidThreads can't be archived, unfortunately. They have have to sit until they flow into the backseat of the pages.

Did they actually put in the anti-bot thing for Dunbartion/Cobh/Belvast? Because I got zip from trading in Shark Fins and Neid Scales (from Cobh) at the Commonwealth of Belvast, despite saying I get a whole bunch of profit.

I traded Dark Swords from Belvast to Dunbarton and I actually got rewarded o-o

Someone else help me clarify this?

Did you get gold?

EXP, Gold, Merchant Rating, whats not to get?

Probably wasn't implemented.

“	Because I got zip from trading in Shark Fins and Neid Scales (from Cobh) at the Commonwealth of Belvast, despite saying I get a whole bunch of profit.	„

As in it would say "+XX" when I purchased it, then it said "Ducat XX" and "EXP 0" when I traded it.

I misread you. I did a trade myself, and only got back what I spent when it said that there was profit. Think it's safe to say it's implemented. Also, apologies for my mistake.

Mistakes happen, don't get worked over it dude.

Incubus Suits from Dunbarton to Belvast, zip. And apparently it showed an absurd ^900...

Shall we test with every item they have in stock?

Spider Gloves from Dunbarton to Cobh and Oysters from Cobh to Dunbartion, ^1, got profit.

Is it only the first two items that get stuff while the rest get zip?

I tried Spider Gloves from Dunbarton to Cobh myself before, and didn't get anything.

Did it say vX?

Pretty sure it said ^1, but I tried again and got something.

Weird, I took cobh Jellyfish to the smuggler, it was before he left and I traded it in, I gained the exact amount of ducats it's worth, I gained exp for the trip, and lost commerce exp cuz it was my 2nd daily trade good that day...

The oddest part was that i got no ducat for it... When it's suppose to be profitable... 110 Jellyfish on a wagon where the smuggler is suppose to give me 81 profit for each one...

The smuggler went to silab cuilin so that's near tailteann...

What does the smuggler have to do with this?

I think he's saying they applied the anti-bot system to the daily good item because he traded in a daily good item to Byrun twice (different game days) and yielded no profit the second time.

O-o...

That's totally wtf. Smugglers aren't easy to find and to get to...

I would actually require more testing to be sure.

That or the smuggler's rate can be killed by many players spamming it, so I dunno if it's a good idea to rely on smuggler all the time when people seemingly kill the rate the same way they kill off popular routes...

Yeah I think the daily trade good is literally only good once, it does not give you ducats the 2nd time and it penalizes you by lowering your commerce exp for that town...

No idea if this is a bug because if it's your second daily trade good, then shouldn't it count like a 'normal' goods and give you increased price for it like any other goods sold to smuggler?

If you gain x profit from the 1st one, you will get the x profit in exact same value as the item you bought for...

So if you bought 100 items for 1000 ducats each, then you will make the same 'profit' but in actuality it's equal to your spending... Thus ducats returned.

Uh... hello?

“	It works only once, though, as trading the Daily Trade Good more than once will decrease your Merchant Rating after the first trade.	„

Yes but consider this: I traded a daily trade good once, got the rewards it gives. Then if it only works once, shouldn't it be considered a 'normal' trade on the 2nd try then and still give you profit? That's the thing that should be fixed, it should give you a profit AND decrease your rating if you keep using the smuggler.

Oh, I was responding to the "penalizes you by lowering your commerce exp for that town" part.

It gives you a profit. It just doesn't show it as profit. It shows it as a massive lump sum. the + whatever shows as BONUS profit and exp.

Well that's the thing, i brought jellyfish to the smuggler on the 2nd time, and it shows no changes, it just gave me my ducats back while giving me exp for the trip and deducting my commerce exp by 22k... Meaning I should have profited about 15k?

Basically it looks like this:

Ducat: [same amount]

Exp: [No changes] <- But It did show the exp got notification

The daily item doubles profit. Does that mean if the daily item is sold to a smuggler, profit is quadrupled?

I'm not merchant destiny, so I haven't tried.

The Daily Item is only for the Smuggler. Your profit is doubled when you sell the Daily Item, which changes every in-game day, to the Smuggler. It isn't doubled anywhere else.

So any other items sold to the smuggler won't be doubled? Or is the only point of a "today's item" to trade with smugglers?

I sold jellyfish from cobh to the smuggler in silab, I'm sure that was the right daily item and it was for ^81 in profit... But when I got there it was valued at 2, or -98 in value, i didn't lose any ducat nor gained any from trading my 110 jellyfish... I did level up from the exp... Daily goods is real time? Explains the huge loss in cobh exp (20k).

It was already known that the daily good does not prevent EXP loss only once per real day.

Then how come I don't gain any ducat and yet still lost exp? Is it a bug with trading a daily good that's mixed and isn't treated like a daily item?

If (Daily good = true) and if (Daily limit = true) {withhold so No ducat gained but other stuff occurs like exp gain and commerce exp loss?}

It seems to me that to prevent exploits they removed ducat gained if you trade the 2nd daily good and onward... The npc commented that after you trade them the daily good, they'll give you a 2x buff to any sales right after? Anyone covered that yet?

Anyone know exactly when the daily good resets every day? It's not 12 am, as i've just done a run at around 1 am and got base profit and penalized.

The reset might be the same for the adv play, so I assume 7 AM server time. I could have a few of my guild merchants check it when they get online since you say 12 AM isn't the reset time. They think it's also a 7 AM reset, but they'll double check it.

tried it at around 9 am awhile ago and i got the daily good bonus, so 7 am sounds about right (that also happens to be the same time that daily shadow missions reset, so it makes sense).

Bah! That means daily goods is real time!

So I've been doing smuggling for awhile now and it seems that profit for the daily good is not quite doubled. It feels more along the lines of 1.5x base profit. I'll have to compare my ducat balance before and after a smuggle to confirm...

Are we sure that the profit increase is a static value? Could it instead be a variable that changes randomly, or based on how many people smuggled in that day?

Or perhaps the profit increase is double the base sell price, instead of the fluctuating prices.

Hmm, seems possible, but it's my belief that it's a static value based on your ducat profit. Doesn't seems randomized to me. It's definitely around 1.5x multiplied.

I'm going to be merchant destiny soon, so I'll be able to look into it a bit then.

If you're already merchant destiny, it would be helpful if you could post some stats about what you're smuggling.

---

Buy price: Sell price: Net Profit: Distance: (which town to which town)

I don't think it's multiplying your profit... my friend traded 38 Ogre Executioner Masks to him with 40 profit each, but recieved 12K profit rather than, 2K...

Did you take into account the cost to purchase the 38 masks?

Might've been the case, since it was his first time smuggling.

All righty, I've finally decided to record one of my smuggling trips. I was carting circle barriers to byrun for an estimated 18.7k profit (exactly 18,700) and I had 2,467,756 ducats. The base profit I should have made would give me 2,486,456 ducats. With smuggler daily bonus I made 2,495,806 ducats. Subtracted from my starting cost that's a 28,050 profit. Half of the base profit (9350) added to base profit (18,700) gives 28,050 ducats, so my guess about the profit being multiplied by 1.5x is spot-on correct. Editing info now.

EDIT: Aw jeez, someone beat me to it. Ah well. At least I could confirm it. XD

Thanks Pyro, good job!

Does profit from Smuggler differ by location, too?

In general, the more maps he is away the more he'll offer for your goods.