Template talk:CharacterInfobox

The -image- doesn't show an image. 12/13/09 ~Gaea

That's because you have to link the image there. --Jαy 02:00, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to fiddle with it, but it's currently lacking that.

Pyrus doesn't consider Saga as "g18", so instead he placed a 2nd row for "The Saga" questline. It's been there for quite a while now.

It's a fact, not a consideration. But ya, the saga is already in the template.

Saga is the storyline implemented in G18. I'm not sure how it's a fact that Saga is not G18's storyline when it clearly is...

I mean, I guess there might be a difference because you can complete only certain episodes and not finish G18 in its entirety, but there should be an option for people like me with the Perseus pet who have finished G18/Saga in its entirety.

The storyline is not called G18 until it is proven it is G18. By that logic, we could guess Shamala update is called G18. Update is called G18, however.

It would be a very drastic leap in logic to conclude that the Shamala update is G18 since, you know, it was released as the content directly after G16 as part of the G17 update. Shamala is the G17 storyline.

In the same way, Saga 1 is the story content released in G18.

The update after G16 is the Talent/Puppeteer Update, not Shamala. . . And again, it's a burden of proof. Please don't prolong this without evidence.

Okay, not "directly" after. Talent get's that honor.

However, "burden of proof" is already there when Shamala is the Generation 17, Season 3 update and Nightmare is the Generation 17, Season 4 update. It is physically impossible for Shamala/Nightmare to be Generation 18 storyline when it was the major storyline released during Generation 17, not Generation 18.

That's my point, people are assuming there is a "Generation 18" storyline. Nexon Japan (DevCAT said it through them, not Korea, Nexon Korea is stationed in Tokyo for some reason) explicitly said there will be no more generation updates or generation storylines. In addition, they never called the Saga Update G18 or it's storyline G18, we compromised by calling the update G18 ONLY because the pack files says so, but following updates after that (Zero, Druid, Diva, Instrument, Vate, Dressroom, Dream, Master Chef, Treasure Hunter, Smart Content), 6 of those updates are larger than "G18" and are not named G anything. The Storyline is never called "G18" ingame, in data, or in any version's website. This has to be factual, not assumed.

Your point is incoherent. There is no logic to it.

A storyline released in Generation 17 is not the storyline of Generation 18. A storyline released in Generation 17 is the storyline of Generation 17. In the same way, a storyline released in Generation 18 is the storyline of Generation 18.

That they said that there will no further generation updates (can I see the source on this?) does not change the fact that Generation 18 is referred to as Generation 18, even if it is only in the files (so far).

Even if not explicitly named such, all of the following updates (Zero, Druid, Diva, Instrument, Vate, Dressroom, Dream, Master Chef, Treasure Hunter, Smart Content) are similar to the Seasons of prior Generations and I consider them such.

Why are we even talking about this, again? We're not exactly changing something on an important page like Patches. The is only a template that Users use on their User pages to illustrate their customized characters... why exactly are you such a stickler for "official wording" on something that is little more than fan content? How can someone be so anal retentive over what should be an absolutely tiny issue?

My problem with this is:

“	A storyline released in Generation 17 is the storyline of Generation 17.	„

People automatically assume this to be fact without evidence.

“	why exactly are you such a stickler for "official wording" on something that is little more than fan content? How can someone be so anal retentive over what should be an absolutely tiny issue?	„

Of all things, I think the top priority of a wiki is to NOT misinform, doesn't matter if it's a page that only gets 2 views a year or a thousand views a day. As few assumptions as possible and assumptions have to be marked as assumptions.

My problem with this:

“	People automatically assume this to be fact without evidence.	„

is that it is a claim made while ignoring the plethora of evidence, and citing its own lack of evidence as proof that it is true.

1. You fail to understand Occam's Razor.
2. You fail to understand where burden of proof lies.
3. You propose a horrible example as proof.

I would say you fail at logic, but that would be rude of me. Instead, I will explain 'why' you are incorrect.

Occam's Razor is simply described as:

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, eats like a duck, and is otherwise the same as a duck, it should not be assumed it is not a duck unless evidence is proposed that shows it is not a duck.

When I look at the Generation stories, you see all of the differences and say "this is not a Generation story", while I (and people in general, it seems) see consistency throughout them that does not make me question their validity as Generation stories.

• 'Generation 1: Advent of the Goddess': Beginning of the story of the Milletian in Erinn, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 1 outside of files
• 'Generation 2: Paladin': Builds up upon Generation 1's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 2 outside of files
• 'Generation 3: Dark Knight': Builds up upon Generation 2's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 3 outside of files
• 'Generation 7: Ancient Secrets of Irinid': Background story on Iria, Elves, Giants, Dragons, etc., pretty short story, minor reward awarded upon completion, no Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 7 outside of files, not questioned as Mainstream story
• 'Generation 8: Dragon': Builds up upon Generation 3 and 7's story, somewhat lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 8 outside of files
• 'Generation 9: Alchemist' Builds up upon Generation 8's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 9 outside of files, has two side stories
• 'Generation 10: Goddess of Light': Builds up upon Generation 9's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 10 outside of files, has two side stories
• 'Generation 11: Sword of the Gods':Builds up upon Generation 10's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 11 outside of files, has one side story
• 'Generation 12: Return of the Hero': Builds up upon Generation 11's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 12 outside of files
• 'Generation 13: Hamlet': Builds up upon Generation 12's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 13 outside of files, has one side story
• 'Generation 14: Romeo and Juliet': Builds up upon Generation 13's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 14 outside of files, has one side story
• 'Generation 15: Merchant of Venice': Builds up upon Generation 14's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 15 outside of files, has one side story
• 'Generation 16: Macbeth': Builds up upon Generation 15's story, pretty lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 16 outside of files, has one side story
• 'Generation 17: Shamala' and 'Nightmare': Story centered around new characters Shamala and Milia, decently lengthy story, major reward awarded upon completion, no Journal entry added, referred to as Generation 17 outside of files, "Generation story" status questioned by Pyrus
• 'Generation 18: The Saga: Iria': Builds up upon Generation 16 and 17's story, pretty lengthy story, at least two major reward awarded upon completion, Journal entry added, no referred to as Generation 18 outside of files, can be repeated and done out of order, "Generation story" status questioned by Pyrus

Until you cite evidence that says 'Generation 18: The Saga: Iria' is not actually 'Generation 18', I see little to no reason to agree with your claim.

The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim that does not coincide with previous thought.

When Charles Darwin proposed the hypothesis/theory of evolution in 1842, he did not claim he was correct without citing evidence which supported his claim. His claim was something which contradicted common understanding at the time, but he cited evidence and eventually came to be known as the father of the modern evolutionary synthesis, which has become understood as fact rather than claim... Yet, here you are thrusting the burden of proof onto those who stand by the conventional understanding of what makes a Generation story instead of providing proof for your argument like Darwin did.

What is your evidence, exactly? A(n unsourced) quote, stated after the release of Generation 18 which states that there will be no more Generation stories (after Saga)? Wow.

And I already covered your horrible example in my previous post.

As burden of proof lies on you, please do not disappoint me, Pyrus. You don't want readers of the wiki to be mislead, correct? :)

I am still looking for that source, whether or not I post it or not won't change the current matter, however.

Occam's Razor isn't valid, though. It's entire purpose is choosing the easiest or least complicated method. It would be much better to be as accurate as possible, given the type of website this is.

This example to me sounds like, okay, this house on the street has a backyard. But that house across the street does not have a backyard. So to keep it consistent, lets say they're both houses with backyards, despite its clear lack of a backyard.

A generation story is NOT a story with a clear reward, start, end, story. We classify that as a "Mainstream Story" (though I have no idea why). A generation story is called a generation story because it is explicitly either said ingame or said on the korean mabinogi website, or devcat itself.

Skipping down to the G13 bullet. That sidequest actually came out in G14, you're just able to do it before starting Generation 14. The issue on sidequests is not cleared, because technically, almost any quest can be considered a sidequest. (Bard skill quests for example. They have story, rewards, and content.)

Generation 17 bullet, nowhere ingame or out of game does it call either Shamala nor Nightmare "Generation 17".

I have nothing to say about Generation 18 that I have not already said.

The "claim" is that the Saga is called Generation 18. Not that it is not. I don't need to provide evidence because you can clearly log into the game see that it is not called Generation 18 anywhere. I would also dig up the korean announcements that first announced the drama (called the drama there) but again, the burden of proof is on the other side.

As much as I'd love for it to be consistent, it is not. And if you could find evidence to prove that the Saga is called Generation 18, please do so. But for now, lets not make assumptions.

“	I am still looking for that source, whether or not I post it or not won't change the current matter, however.	„

Actually, for people who aren't brainless fools, it will make all the difference in the world. With all the sources you cite, I could say that DevCat sent me an e-mail last night stating that The Saga: Iria is actually Generation 18's story and there would be little for you to do because the argument has become "he said, she said" and not based off of listed, valid sources.

Until you can provide evidence that this quote actually exists, why should it be included in your list of evidence? Because you have confirmation bias, maybe?

Also, do not forget that that quote can be spun to support a number of arguments, including one that says there will continue to be a Generation series because DevCat might have been referring to the Zero updates, etc. as not Generations. In no way has this "quote" been presented in a way that contradicts that line of thinking... in your world, that means you have to provide evidence it is wrong and I don't have to provide evidence that it is correct. :)

And yes, Occam's Razor IS applicable. It's applicable in all situations, but is not always correct. In the same way it is not logical to assume that one illness is caused by black magic while all the rest are caused by bacteria, viruses, etc, it is logical to assume that, since X is similar to Y, then X and Y fall into the same category. Building on my previous example, if you do not have good evidence that it is not a duck when it is otherwise pretty much the same as one, why assume that it is not a duck?

Your problem is you take your own assumption/claim as fact. Your (apparent) list of evidence to support your claim is lacking, one being an ambiguous quote and the other being the fact that it has not YET been referred to as "Generation 18" by the developers (while ignoring that it is called so in the files".

I do not have time to refute your argument in full. Rest assured, however, your attempts to act like a creationist and shift the burden of proof onto the biologists while denying the weakness of your arguments and the copious amounts of evidence that already evidence are duly noted by me, the only one skeptical enough to call you out on your BS.

"people who aren't brainless fools", "skeptical enough to call you out on your BS."
Whatever happened to:
"I would say you fail at logic, but that would be rude of me. Instead, I will explain 'why' you are incorrect."

The quote could be used as evidence that upcoming updates will not be called Generations. Keyword updates, not storylines. I did not say that included the Saga or the "G18" update. As I said, I am still looking for that quote (there are very few languages I can read without a translator mind you), you can choose to completely disregard the quote until then. But as I said and partially implied (I apologize, sometimes I have points in my head while reading things but forget to write them), it does not support my point of the Saga not being called "Generation 18", but it also doesn't need to, as there is currently no factual basis for calling it "Generation 18".

"I don't have to provide evidence that it is correct. :)" I am sorry if I implied I require you to find evidence to support that, rather, I said I require evidence that the Saga storyline (not the update it came out with/after) is called "Generation 18".

I'm going to go on a short tangent and skip to a previous post of yours because I forgot to write this when I had time.
There have been updates of arguably equal or greater size to the "G18" update since. Such as the Zero/Druid update.

Too long.

• "G18":
  • Added a new skillset (Dual Guns)
  • Added a storyline. (Note that it is not as easily repeatable in other servers that it is in NA.)
• Zero/Druid:
  • Altered the damage formula for magic.
  • Altered the damage formula for blaze.
  • Added new skill coefficients for magic skills.
  • Added new stat multipliers to most alchemy skills.
  • Stat formula changes. (Protection [technically had its formula removed], balance, deadly-rate)
  • Changed the values rates of some stats (Magic Defense, Defense, Magic Attack)
  • Removed some stats/values (Magic Damage, Crystal Quality)
  • Added new stats (Passive evasion [w/e it's called], Armor Pierce, Magic Prot, Damage Reduction [one for Prot and one for Magic Prot])
  • Added three new close combat skills and four new magic skills.
  • Added a new weapon that performs both weapon-specific magic skills and fighter skills. (There's another one but that's added later.)

My point being, "are similar to the Seasons of prior Generations and I consider them such.", it is arguably larger or smaller than "G18", but without question, they are comparably large update. When you consider updates such as "G17", had the replacement with destinies with talents, and 8 new life skills, I hope you agree with my opinion that both updates are larger than "G17". "Season" updates are usually shorter than that. Although they may contain some huge change, it's still usually very few physical changes. Such as "G17S2" added the puppeteer skills/quests and not much else. To consider them season updates or not season updates would not be accurate, as most of the new content don't even have a generation tag at all in package files, nor is there an associated name for them. It is not our place to judge the size of the file but if I were to use your logic, I would not call them smaller updates to that of "G18".

What is not under question: The Saga came out in the updates following "G18".
What is not certain without evidence: The name of updates, the name of storylines, and the name of "chapters".

Occam's Razor is applicable in most situations, and yes it can be wrong. No disagreements there. But I fail to see how it's application is beneficial in most situations. For example, in medicine. If one find a new illness, and that illness seems to be similar chicken pox but is not caused by the same virus as chicken pox, you do not call it chicken pox. They never claim the cause of a disease with an unknown cause is the same as another disease until there is solid proof. They do, however, mention coincidence factors, but not say those are the causes. That is what is currently being done on the saga in this wiki.

The only assumptions I have made is:

• Updates/storylines have official names.
• As a community, we assumed the definition of "Mainstream quests", even though the term was used very few times and it was a long time ago if at all used.

There is also the question of chapter names. Most chapters have either a name for the chapter, the mainstream storyline, or the update, usually not more than two if even two. For example, Advent of the Goddess. Is Advent of the goddess the name of the first mainstream storyline, the update it came out in, or the entire first three mainsteam storylines as a whole? Only one of those three I can confirm at the minute without research, all three first three storylines go in the "Advent of the Goddess" tab of the quest window ingame. I could probably search if "Advent of the Goddess" is used in all three contexts, and after writing this I kind of want to and think I should, but I doubt I would find it in all three contexts.

What we need is to buckle down and be strict on how we name things. A conservative method would be to leave things as is, but clearly marking on each page that it is under investigation, and one by one going by that three I mentioned before for each update. On the other hand, a radical move would be strip the wiki of all it's name for updates/storylines and its definition and use of the word "mainstream" until it is one by one confirmed. I do not necessarily support one way or the other, and am sure there are ways I didn't think of, but I do think something should be done. We shouldn't call something a thing just because it would be consistent, we need evidence.

Sorry, hit the other reply button.

“	Whatever happened to: "I would say you fail at logic, but that would be rude of me. Instead, I will explain 'why' you are incorrect."	„

My mood varies, time to time, day to day, argument to argument. However, I do not consider those rude when I already explained why you were wrong.

“	The quote could be used as evidence that upcoming updates will not be called Generations. Keyword updates, not storylines. I did not say that included the Saga or the "G18" update.	„

As far as I could tell, you were the one insinuating that the quote was part of your evidence for your claim that Generation 18's story "The Saga: Iria" was not actually the G18 story. If I misinterpreted you apologies, but, if I did not misinterpret you then does this mean your argument is essentially supported by one piece of evidence: that The Saga: Iria has not yet been officially called G18?

“	I am sorry if I implied I require you to find evidence to support that, rather, I said I require evidence that the Saga storyline (not the update it came out with/after) is called "Generation 18".	„

Sorry, bub. Occam's Razor eliminates unnecessary assumptions. Unless there is good reason to suggest that the status quo has changed, there is little to no reason to assume it has like you are. You are the one making the claim that the status quo has changed and the storyline released in Generation 18 is not actually the Generation 18 storyline.

“	I'm going to go on a short tangent and skip to a previous post of yours because I forgot to write this when I had time. There have been updates of arguably equal or greater size to the "G18" update since. Such as the Zero/Druid update.	„

With your... summarizing skills, I'd say you'd be a shoo-in for a position at Fox News. They always need people who are perfectly willing to distort the evidence and try to convince low-info people that they (Fox News) are the ones telling the truth.

I shall show you why you suffer from confirmation bias with an examples:

In Fairness

• "G18":
  • Added a new skillset (Dual Guns)
  • Added a storyline.
  • Made Demonic Items easier to obain.
  • New Items.
  • New Areas.
  • New Skills.
• Zero/Druid:
  • Altered magic skills.
  • Altered alchemy skills.
  • Changed Stat formulas.
  • New Skillz.

I mean, look at that. I applied similar summarizing techniques to the Zero/Druid update that you did to Generation 18, and look who's longer?

And, guess what, Season updates have been pretty big in the past. They have added new skills, new areas, changed stuff around... they aren't necessarily "tiny" or "minor" updates. If you followed your own typing you would have unwound your own argument without me having to do it for you.

This is why I view the Zero, Druid, Diva, Vate, et. all updates as a "Season" update, even if they are not named such.

“	What is not under question: The Saga came out in the updates following "G18". What is not certain without evidence: The name of updates, the name of storylines, and the name of "chapters".	„

I don't see why any of those are uncertain at this point. We have no evidence to conclude that The Saga: Iria is not to be referred to as Generation 18. We only have evidence that it has not been called that. Occam's Razor eliminates the unnecessary assumption that something is different unless evidence is shown otherwise.

“	If one find a new illness, and that illness seems to be similar chicken pox but is not caused by the same virus as chicken pox, you do not call it chicken pox.	„

Then you do not call it Chicken Pox because you have 'evidence' that it is not Chicken Pox, therefore (somewhat) bypassing Occam's Razor and agreeing with virtually everything I said on the subject of Occam's Razor.

Logic.

In order for this kind of scenario to happen in the current case, one has to provide evidence that Generation 18: The Saga: Iria is not actually called that. Burden of proof lies on those going against conventional thought, i.e. You.

“	We shouldn't call something a thing just because it would be consistent, we need evidence.	„

The only evidence that should be necessary is that you have little to no evidence that the pattern was broken. You assume it has. Occam's Razor eliminates unnecessary complications unless evidence is shown that a complication is necessary to explain the inconsistency.

So provide us with this evidence, Pyrus.

...and thought I was the only who knew what "Occam's Razor" was...stupid philosophy class D:

It is a fundamental aspect of science. True to my namesake, I am a man of science. :P

Never heard of Occam's Razor...

...Not surprised.

Word of advice Kave: avoid using the "Reply" button the right or this crap happens:

File:Thread Pyramiding is Bad.png

There's a huge discussion about it here.

Although uncovered G18, DevCAT nor Nexon never declared it as such in their announcements.

I'm not going to argue against whether or not it is g18, but that is not yet a fact.

ರ_ರ. . .

Great, it's being carried from patches to here to...to hell with this...

囧興 *slowly walks away as a turtle*

I really envy the amount of spare time some people in this thread have.

I really don't have that much time, I have to finish this asap long iwht other treasure hunter related things.

I envy their brains

Seeing as how this thread literally has zero (0) action items, I think it's time to end it. If you have actual, concrete items to propose, keep in mind that the mainstream quests section won't scale much further in width. Also consider writing more concisely and perhaps with less ~hilarious zingers~.

How much more redundant could this template get?