Concerning with recent image reversions...

Well I don't see anywhere in the policy, but there's been a revision war as of late over a simple topic of...nudity/being in underwear (See Rosemary Gloves and Sword of Elsinore).

Recently, I put in my guide (which hopefully is being passed around...) the following:

“	Try not to upload pictures that are in your character's undergarments. Remember that there are people that are sensitive to this type of material.	„

The only reason I put this is because I recommended someone who was only 10~12 (not giving a name for privacy reasons) to look at the Rosemary gloves page for the info on how to make the gloves. Course, the images he saw was the ones that are up by Seecret (I'm not blaming you, there's other images that where people are nude too.). So he now hates me for thinking that I was showing him "stuff" (i'll leave it at that) and thinks this whole wiki is full of that smut...

At this point it sounds like I'm flaming the wiki, but I think we should put a rule on that? though i am aware not all pages have that kind of stuff, but it's for the sake of people who are sensitive to that type of material, or strong beliefs against nudity. what should we, as the community of the wiki, do about this? this doesn't mean it's bad, but just thinking about the sake of others. I'm not saying, take down everything with nudity on it...but what to do about it.

I was just reverting because I saw no rule about it, not to start a war honestly ><;; If people are going to look at the image and think wrong I guess that's just their mind being immature about it..but who am I to judge. If they do make a rule concerning the underwear problem, however, I would be happy to go with it and upload completely new ones. I just never knew the underwear thing was a big deal because it's in a game and saw no rule about it that's all. Sorry anyways!

On a kind of related note, for clothes such as gloves, would it be more favorable to crop the pictures to show only one? Since all gloves should have the same design on both left and right hands, I don't see a problem with this.

The main advantages to this is:

1. Keeping Preview template pictures a consistent size
2. Bypassing this undergarments issue

I like that idea Akira, it's a good way to fix it and space at the same time, because I know honestly for me and maybe other people it's hard to find some clothing that doesn't block the gloves one bit while taking the image, really frustrating.

@Seecret: As I stated earlier, I'm not blaming you. I understand you are doing what you think is right, which is fine by many people. However, it's just that in the recent changes (which I check often when I am on the wiki) that there's a lot of...reversions over the gloves. It's fine that you are reverting to yours, but it seems to cause some commotion...at any rate, I'm just saying that people are out there are a bit sensitive over that sort of thing, even just being in underwear for that matter. There are people that are minors who have not been exposed to that or what not and I'm just looking out for them.

@Akira: Some gloves have 2 different gloves, such as the Glove of Extravaganza. Angevon recently updated it showing both gloves. Besides, many of us seems to be comfortable for showing both gloves, rather than just one.

Oh nono I know you weren't blaming me don't worry!

Nice to see we're on the same page.

Maybe a rule would be a bit harsh. I wasn't exactly thinking long term when pulling this topic up. I just think something should be done. even though it's just underwear, people get weirded out sometimes, or maybe even overreact.

I'm just waiting to see if something comes up to give me the green light on taking new pics for the gloves and the sword, although the sword isn't really showing it on the equipped part, I could definitely redo the sheathed, but just waiting for the green light!

I've heard of people getting 'weirded out' by characters posing in underwear for pictures. However, for a lot of items, the clothes get in the way (e.g. weapons and gloves tend to clip somewhat into clothes). So I don't know... Newbie wear seems to have the least clipping, and it's easily available, so I suggest wearing that.

Personally I'd rather see both gloves.

I'd retake them since it's causing a fuss over on the Rosemary gloves...sword...well might as well retake those too so that people can stop uploading/reverting.

Alright I will get on it right now thanks for clearing this up guys.

No prob. I'm just looking out for people's mindsake or...something like that.

Hey I'm having trouble with getting the right clothing for the item since I do not have a premium newbie wear and all the other clothes go through the thumb part of the glove. The only wear I have that does not do that is flamerider, but I'm not sure about it since the sleeve goes underneath the glove itself, but it doesn't cover the glove. Is that okay if I use it? Ah it seems Zey is still going at it, but I will just wait for the answer to this very confusing question to finish this up.

There is nothing wrong with the current picture. If you wish for me to upload a picture with the premium newbie, I'll be happy to do so. The new image of the Elsinore sword is also unnecessary, as the flames and sword is clearly distinct from everything else, and it's placed over a black backdrop.

Frankly, I don't understand the revert war with these images over the so-called "nudity". If someone gets "weirded out" over a character in their underwear, then they should probably find another game to play. If you are only replacing an image simply because of the current image has a character in their underwear, then you are not actually constructively contributing to the wiki.

That's what I said but hey, it's their own opinion I guess and we should respect it :) Anyways I have already fixed both of them and everything should be fine!

Those pictures you added were unnecessary in the end; the originals were fine. ^^

Actually, the ones I had contributed showed much more zoom and less background to focus on only the gloves, with the glow included still. I'm sorry if you feel differently about the images but it still has a point to it.

Your background are distracting compared to a black backdrop.

It doesn't have to be a black backdrop, although that can be greater at certain times ^^ I really appreciate your opinions Zey! I honestly didn't mean to make you feel uncertainty of my images or your own.

It seems they're still being reverted after I fixed them...I'm stopping the reverts x.x This is a waste of time and if they don't realize the improvements I was making when I made it clear as day, even after how far this conversation has gone, so be it.

I think Zey meant that black backdrops make it easier to see the special effects such as glowing, or in this case, flames.

The problem I have with black backdrops is that the uploader has edited the image to achieve the affect. That means that the image will not be a true representation what the object will look like in-game, which is the purpose of these images to begin with. The only case were removing the background is acceptable is with the inventory icons, because then you are only remove part of the user interface.

I didn't edit anything. Dunbarton school library, go go go.

To clarify, you can pose right in front of the doorway to the Dunbarton library to get a natural black backdrop.

So I'm confused with this whole situation..I took new pics as requested and they still get reverted?

That is because the old one was fine.

I do not recall there ever being a request for a new picture either.

Angevon, if it is alright with you, can we close this matter and thread? Thank you.

No need to be rude about it...also the original showed much background and not enough focus on the gloves itself, it was hard to see the details. Also, Mikaya requested it higher in the thread. I only replaced with new ones showing no underwear to fix this mess once and for all and the black background is not required but does give some advantage.

The current one? Yours do not show the glow as well and the background distorts the flame and frost of the gloves. Can we close this matter, if you don't mind?

Actually, i made it so that i got all of the glow. Also the sword was fine actually...but black backdrop would have been better as you said ^^ I would love to close this but I want to hear from people on what they think should be done before keeping it a lost cause...

There are two things I want to point out.

First, this seems to be a matter of contrast vs details. It's true that the black background shows the glow far more precisely, but on the other hand Seecret's picture shows the details of the actual glove far better, not to mention she actually cropped hers to fit the preview template. Personally, I would think that the details of the glow would not matter as much compared to the size of the glove (or sword).

Second, though slightly irrelevant, was there a point to changing the side and angled views? 'Cause, I know the complaint was to do with the character's lack of clothing, but personally I think it's so hard to tell for the specified pictures that nudity can't really be an excuse for those two pictures.

To clarify this, the only reason I brought this up was the reason I stated in the first post. Now it's another revision war (okay...that might be exaggerating a bit) over black backgrounds versus in-game backgrounds...*facepalm* I'm going to have to with Akira's glove details over glove's glow argument...I mean it's just glowing smoke @@ why does that matter?

It reminds me of the blue smoke that comes from pets when you have them out for so long. I think it might actually be the same thing but the pet one doesn't last as long xD

Nitpicking, nitpicking everywhere.

But I agree with OP that people shouldn't be naked in the pictures.

I mean come on, people here care more about having their picture on the wiki instead of actually contributing.

If you guys actually cared about helping people, you'd make a rule about not having people naked, instead of calling it immature. The kid is 12, and telling him to go play another game because you don't want to let someone else post a more appropriate picture IS vanity.

I've seen stupider rules being enforced when it concerned revisions, so why isn't nudity against the rules?

If the kid is 12 and playing Mabinogi, then they are in violation of the game's TOU and their account can be suspended. Second, there is no actual nudity in any of the pictures, simply character in their underwear. That is why I stated that it was "so-called" nudity. But if people are offended by seeing characters in their underwear, they shouldn't be playing a game where they can see characters in their underwear. That's the same as saying that if you are offending by nude women dancing provocatively, then you shouldn't go to a strip club.

Being offended or not by underwear shots is a false dichotomy. I deal with wiki issues at work sometimes and the last thing I need is butt shots on my screen that people might see. I would strongly prefer clothed shots, though I'm not necessarily arguing for a rule here.

Whoa, a bit late here but I'm not saying the person HAS to be 12. You could be 30 and still be offended by this kind of stuff. It takes little effort to actually slap on any outfit, and it would would make it more SFW.

It's really mostly the difficulty of finding clothing that is skintight enough to not block out any parts of the gloves. it took me through 5 or more outfits to find one that worked for Lance Feather Gloves (Female) and even then, it still blocked some things. And was a bit distracting. And -squints- I forgot to unequip my swords? Drat! brbgonnagofixitfast

That might be true, but it's not so difficult that it wouldn't be worth it.

John..we already talked about the nudity..again. What's with all the late comments lately xD? I know your faster than that.

My laptop's been broken for a month. I got a day off of work and school to go visit a couple of places.

But seriously, you basically told a 12 year old kid to GTFO because you didn't want someone else to post a picture.

Yeah, in the end you posted a non-nude picture, but my god, again with the nitpicking. Sure they might not be doing a good a job as you in posting pictures, but let someone else do it once in a while. Other people want to contribute too.

But in truth, I lol'd

Zey: Don't revert my image

Seecret: What? You want me to improve your image?

I can see why some people take offense to that.

Sorry, I meant to say FARIX told a 12 year old kid to GTFO, not you seecret.

What the...we've established that it shouldn't be a rule. I wasn't thinking long term. at any rate...there has been an issue with people wanting to get some fame as of late. I don't think they know the meaning of contributions except showing themselves off...

I don't do mine for fame it just bothers me when I can't see FULL detail and it just goes blah in my head. I mean I do a lot of images but that doesn't always mean I'm doing it for fame x.x I could take a HUGE break from the wiki any time but then I'd have nothing to do. It doesn't matter how many image contributions someone has as long as their fitting the expectations, that's what I think.

I know you don't do it for fame. I'm just saying certain people during certain events or something...then they brag. I mean, SwissedToast redid most of the weapon images and various other things. Course, those got replaced for low res...but it was still a valid picture for wiki standards.

Yea, that's kind of where I'm aiming at. Anyone can do it I'm actually teaching Johnkilla in-game once in a while with a few tips, just taught him how to do SUPAH ZOOM :D I still need to work on his anger issues *cough* (no offense John D:! I still loves you)

I can see that you never took this off...I thought I asked you to.

Alright, I have no idea why this is bugging me so much, and I wasn't going to do this, but I just have to say it.

First off, at the time that you made this comment about me, you yourself didn't even know about that zoom trick until a few weeks ago, and you told me yourself about how you didn't know about it until now.

Second, when you told me you first learned about it, I told you at the time that I already did for years now. I only pretended not to know because I didn't want to hurt your feelings more than I already have.

Third, I'm not someone you have to take care of, and I don't have anger issues. I'd be more inclined to accept your help with my personal business if you were more inclined to admit that you have issues of your own when I tried to help you myself. Stop trying to fix people and their work, you have plenty of flaws to work on yourself, let others take care of themselves.

Also, don't post things that could be considered offensive to others on a public medium.

And I apologize for being off topic.

“	Stop trying to fix people and their work, you have plenty of flaws to work on yourself, let others take care of themselves. Also, don't post things that could be considered offensive to others on a public medium.	„

Might want to follow your own advice Johnkilla. Bluntly telling someone that they have plenty of flaws can be considered offensive, especially in the way you're doing it. Seecret may be a bit stubborn at times with her edits and uploads, but she's just trying to make images follow the policy (even though they already do sometimes).

I didn't even want to post it, but she likes treating people like children, and I was offended by that, especially because of the way she types online. Now, it's one thing to correct people with your superior wiki skills, and another when you're telling them they're being offensive and ask them to stop.

I may have been blunt, but only because Seecret hasn't picked up on it so far.

I'm not even going to go into her image edits, that's been talked about too many times before.

In fact, I'm going to stop posting altogether. She's going to see this eventually and I'll have to apologize.

If you didn't even want to post it, then you didn't have to. You felt compelled to post, and then used the whole "I felt obligated to" bit to try and justify a personal attack on seecret. Also, if you can predict having to apologize to her, why not do it now? I may not be on the best terms with her myself, but a personal attack over something that happened about month ago is a bit much (especially since it was started because of your own personal opinion on the matter).

Everyone makes mistakes, so I'm going to point out something you said previously:

“	Stop trying to fix people and their work, you have plenty of flaws to work on yourself, let others take care of themselves.	„

Sorry, but you have your own flaws too, so stop trying to fix people and let them take care of themselves unless they ask for help.

Please stop.

So many messages...

What Saiyr said.

I'd like to invite thought on ways to prevent future revertion drama. A rule against reversions doesn't seem plausible but from what I've gathered things like this have happened many times.

If a pictures good enough there shouldn't be any dire need for new versions and shitstorms.

We should just delete multiple reversions in the case that people keep reverting them. x.x;;

Some people tend to take the whole "better zoom" thing too far, and use that as an excuse to replace otherwise "decent" images. (decent being that you can see all the details just fine already) Others go crazy over seeing white/black. Maybe some sort of system should be added so that if too much reverting occurs, the page will just be locked until an admin takes a look at it and decides using his or her own judgement.

inb4imagesizelimit

Just popping in to put some two cents on two points brought up here, that I've been thinking on myself. I sometimes check the wiki while I'm at work, so if I come across images where the characters are "nude" and another co-worker comes behind me, things can get difficult. It isn't just a matter of age, but a matter of decency. While I was in high school I checked the wiki during dead periods to do research or to look up information on items and if I were to be caught with a character naked on the screen then there could be trouble. Yes, there are younger kids who play and (I could be wrong here) but if a child has permission from their parents I believe children under 13 are still able to play mabi (however I'm not sure and could easily be wrong here).

The second point I have an issue with is the "super zoom" which has suddenly become a massive reason for some revisions and edits on the wiki. I just find it strange that an image that was considered perfectly fine before can be replaced by an image with maybe 10 to 20 pixels added in height or width. I do understand some of them have provided more details but... in come cases it hardly any difference and there isn't enough of a difference to have even warranted a change other than "I feel like this should be 1.1x as big". I've seen a lot of revision wars and revision topics on talk pages and it has become a huge pet peeve of mine when I see it as the ONLY reason for these revisions. At some point I almost feel it would drive people to try and "out zoom" each other, which would only end up with gigantic files on the server showing details that... you wouldn't even notice unless you put your face against the screen. Honestly, with most equips the standard "close up" with slight adjustment though the use of fixed camera movement is enough to see the details.

To sight two examples of zoom reverts that I could find off hand... http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=File:Pop_Star_Bracelet_Equipped_Front.png This one was obviously needed as the previous image was not too detailed... however... http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=File:Yukata_Mini_Hair_Ornament_%28F%29_Equipped_Front.png This is how zoom wars are going to start, if they haven't already. Even if it is "higher res", the zoom shows less of the item when you consider the 3D modeling style Mabinogi uses. After a certain point, you're just getting bigger and blurrier pixels along with larger file sizes for the wiki!

Thank god I'm not the only one who thinks so.