Talk:Alchemy Mastery

Production Mastery with Alchemy Mastery

I'm guessing they can't be combined right? Since it doesn't count as a real production because it's in a entirely new category. --Dra6o0n 06:54, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

No. It can't be combined. --Juff 13:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Alchemy Mastery only affects alchemy, but Production Mastery indirectly affects alchemy by how much stamina the person has. --Miyuna 13:47, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't it work the other way around too since Alch Mastery gives Stam as well? --Mabiwar 16:46, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, production mastery does say "create any material trough use of a skill." Sounds like it 'should cover alchemy-made items.... [/speculation]--Haven923 16:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Summon Golem

Anyone knows if there is a certain rank where the golem gets bigger (like Windmill's range) or it gradually gets bigger every rank (like windmill's damage)?--Leyuu 19:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

They get slightly bigger every rank. Standing multiple golems side by side, I have seen a minor height difference between F, E, and D. --Yotothe5 06:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Should we put this on the golem page or alchemy mastery page, or both?--Leyuu 20:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Added it to the golem page. --Yotothe5 07:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, someone already removed it, guess no one needs to know this fact. --Yotothe5 19:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Golem Windmill is indeed size based. There was a huge firestorm about it on KR test during G13 beta because alchemy transmute mastery's size multiplier was compounding and making golems bigger than the screen that could wm a whole dungeon room from the center. Alchemy Mastery and in the future Transmute Mastery will make golems bigger with each rank. Summon Golem does not increase the size of golems. Tellos 15:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Golem sizes get larger at Alchemy mastery rank C,9,5 and 1--Azuka

They grow sizes from each rank, this I am sure of.Whether or not those ranks get a bigger boost in height I do not know. --TwiliTerror 00:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

They do not grow larger at specific ranks, instead they grow a little larger each and every time you rank up Alchemy Mastery (Yes I felt the need to attach a link to that).Th3Evil5Ponge 01:31, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Other skills and alchemy mastery

"Training skills NOT related to alchemy will weaken all your alchemy attacks EXCEPT Summon Golem."

really? REALLY? --(not-so)Anonymous 21:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit: Sorry about that. but is there any formula for this? Because my elf's damage for water cannon seems to reflect what the skill says even though she has plenty of non alchemy skills ranked already.--(not-so)Anonymous 21:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Removing that until there is proof. --- Angevon (Talk) 22:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Who comes up with these silly rumors? Don't believe that. --Phunkie 08:48, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Probably the same person who said "Ranking up Ranged Attack makes Magnum Shot aim slower"--Kong 09:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Attack an Enemy Using Alchemy Requirement

For the "Attack an Enemy Using Alchemy" requirement, does damage reflected from barrier spikes count? It's not really an attack, but it is alchemy and it does do damage.... --MattTheWaz 02:40, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm guessing that it won't. :x --κєνıи _{(»тαıĸ«)} 02:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

From my experience. only direct attack Alchemy skills count for the training. --Bryanneo 14:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Crystal Ranks?

When it says to make a certain rank crystal, does that refer to Mana Crystallization, or do you have to make a crystal with the corresponding skill at the correct rank?Th3Evil5Ponge 03:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

My guild mates have said only for Mana Crystallization and it seems true so far. This means in rank 2 you need to be able to make rank 2,3 or 4 crystals because you won't have enough experience to get rank 1 even if you complete all other requirements. --Bryanneo 15:37, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Crystal ranks are either determined by the rank of a mana forming crystal or the minimum possible rank at which a crystal is able to be made. Sadly, the only crystals that are rank dependant other than mana forming crystals are Summon Golem Crystals. Tellos 15:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Golem crystals work? Is it the rank of the skill or the type of golem you make? --Bryanneo 15:57, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, a crystals "rank" is the lowest possible rank at which it can be made for its respective skill. I could be wrong though, but it couldn't hurt to try. Tellos 05:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Barrier spikes

i heard that alch mastery incresses barrier spikes HP but there nothing on hear saying that and there dose anyone know if this is ture and what the % are i would think it would be "Alchemy Damage and Golem Status Bonus [+%]" but that is little much if at rank 1 theres a 45% that would mean the max amout of HP a barrier spike could have would be about 2k--Vats3 18:07, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

That % applies to all things alchemy, be it the CP limits of the skill, the freeze time, the damage, or the HP. The only exception seems to be Life Drain's Drain portion which is not modified by anything. Tellos 05:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Since the Enlightenment patch, is it now impossible to train "Successfully make a crystal which not require magic casting"? Only seen from ranks E-A. I thought maybe could be done via Synthesis cloning but those crystal formulas don't work anymore either.

You're right, this can't be done any more, and so you can't train that req. The only available option to you is to use the training medal from the event, or wait it out. Eventually they do revamp it, I think maybe at the druid update, but possibly as late as vate.

I don't see any rank that you NEED to make non magic casting crystals. Looks to me you can get through any rank without it. Might be a little harder, but it's possible.

Why are the Ranked Crystals still there?!

Based on the list of skill reqs, Meru's right, you can still rank up without using the crystals, but you'll still have to do mana crystallization. I didn't really look at it the first time because I was just going off what I'd heard from low rank alchemists.

Shouldn't "Successfully make a Rank # crystal." also be gone too, since magic crystal quality is gone?

Yes, it is on the nexon bugs and glitches forum's known issues list.

I've been training this recently and noticed the crystal making requirements past r9(?) have changed to "Make a crystal at Mana Crystallization Rank X or above." Currently, r3 Alchemy Mastery wants r5 Mana Crystallization made crystals. The amount and training experience given is the same.

Did they fix it since Vates or are alchemists still doomed?

Make a crystal still exists, albeit with a Mana crystallization rank stuck on it. Not sure how my friend is ranking alchemy mastery :x...probably doing the other tasks outside of this one like attack/defeat requirements and synth/fragging

I figured I'd put this discussion on this page since it applies to most alchemy skills. I have looked over most of the skills and I noticed we haven't updated the formulas yet. For example, from what I've heard/seen of flame burst, the additional damage from HP is .008x your current HP (it's a low multiplier, 8 flame damage per 100 HP) and similar things for the other skills, it'd be behooving to have those new formulas on the pages of each skill, however I don't know each stat bonus and I have only rF alchemy ranks other than mastery itself, so I have no real way of testing this myself.

This page has most of the multipliers. The formulas, in alchemy's case, was not changed at all except with a +(x*y) at the end. Just to clarify what they mean on the negative hp for life drain, they mean 200/700 HP will be 700-200=500, and 200/700 would make life drain better than 200/500.

+(x*y) is still an adjustment though. I understand /how/ the bonuses are applied, but I think we should add the new co-efficient to the page. We have "Damage increases with higher HP" So why don't we just slap on "Damage increases by 8 for every 100 HP the player has." as well? I really don't understand the other portions of alchemy damage and I have no idea whether the HP(or other stats) bonus adds to the base (although it sounds like it doesn't, that'd get a little crazy) But I just think that the amount of extra damage should be added, rather than just "it increases"

Yes, please do add them if you want to. I personally avoiding touching formulas on this wiki.

I was on my Alchemist char when i saw that rank F now has "Defeat an enemy using an Alchemy attack skill. (0/40)"

I had recently started to play my alchemist again because he was collecting dust just sitting there x.x;

Bah x.x was blind and didn't scroll down x~x =~= must be tired e.e...

It used to say rank 1 is 45% bonus, now why is it 15%? --Miyuna 11:58, 17 January 2011 (PST)

It has been corrected. It was wrong before.

So you are saying that my Life drain does not do 1.45 times its base damage of 900 and everytime I see 1305, I am really seeing 1035? Um. no.

and I just saw the life drain page was updated to account for the lower %. Seems to me when you have to have a secondary constant to modify the primary constant, the primary constant is wrong. 3 * 15% = 45% Seems like a needless over complication.

All alchemy skills have a secondary constant. Only adv alchemy (Life Drain, Shock, Summon Golem) has a 3x constant.

Barrier has a 3x too. which skill did you use to get the 15%? Water cannon? (which has a range to target based damage modifier)

If you've got a problem with it why don't you prove it wrong.

what's to prove wrong? 3x 15% = 45% that's a fact and cannot be proven wrong. my argument is that it is an over complication.

If you can prove that all offensive alchemy skills use a 3x multiplier, then the page will be changed back.

I can't prove that all offensive alchemy skills are 3x.

I can't prove wind blast or sand burst damage are modified by AM at all. (nor are they listed as having damage modified by AM)

heat buster is listed with a 3x. Life drain is listed with a 3x. shock is listed with a 3x. Barrier spike is listed with a 3x. Golem is listed with a 3x.

This leaves Water cannon and flame burst.

For water cannon, the range modifier is not as I have seen it. Without an agreement on that damage, any proof I offer can be argued invalid. Which leaves us with Flame burst. And, in this case, it seems to work. I also do not have a solution that works that preserves a 45% value. But, I'd argue that changing the value of AM bonus to fit one skill is over complicating all alchemy for the sake of one skill.

You're new here so I'll give you some tips.

1) When requesting to change a formula which is considered good you must provide:

Numeric evidence which is not weighted down by outside variables. A proposed good formula which matches 100% of the observed data If a different equation would be used for a certain circumstance you must prove that your observations are not in error AND a valid formula.

If you cannot provide these you can argue the current formula invalid to have it removed by providing non-weighted repeatable numeric evidence that shows that the formula is indeed invalid.

2) Just because you think something is right or wrong doesn't mean it is or isn't. the ONLY good argument here is observed numbers, think of it as science.

3) Formulas are intended to be as close to the real game-programed formula as possible. This is so that they can be 100% accurate. We do not take shortcuts or reorganize formula structures in trivial ways.

I am not arguing for a change, I am arguing against a change. How many Alchemy skills now use a 3x and how many use the new values? I count 5 that use the old value (new value x 3), and 2 that use the new value. One of the skills that use the new value has an error in a range modifier. Which leaves a major change to formulas based on a single skill (possibly two).

Science would not change over complicate a formula for the sake of a single exception. But would write a formula for the exception and be done with it.

I do not have a formula for flame burst, because I have not tested flame burst (except to confirm the new formula works for it). Water cannon, on the other hand, is something I tested heavily. I know for a fact the range modified damage goes above 100%, and in the water cannon discussion I offered you a method to test it to see for yourself. (rN AM and rF WC to remove AM from damage) I know it works, because I did it for the express purpose of quantifying what was prior to my testing, an unknown quantity. Heck, even in the Water cannon discussion there is a post that says range affects balance, which it does not.

The damage range modifier is not incorrect. You have not proven it is in any way. I have not observed an increase over max when using the skill at point blank. Note that if you were using it against skeletons or shadow monsters, these are fire aligned and as a result, water cannon does more damage to them than normal.

This is the simplest possible way.

This also reflects the games internal calculation programing.

You are argument for the change to a 3x base is invalid on the following grounds:

It is not all encompassing. The current method is all encompassing.

Only specific skills use 3x, other skills are shown to take a deduction if the alchemy master is not rank 1. (water cannon, flame burst).

Wind Alchemy does not receive a damage bonus. It receives an effect bonus equal to 1.5x the alchemy mastery value.

.15 allows all things to be defined in the simplest possible mathematical terms. Using .45 would force us to complicate equations to reduce it to .15 where it is not .45

This is the method the game programing uses.

Your argument for water cannon's damage is not supported in any way, and the math used to make it is faulty.

The pages will not be changed.

Er...i'm confused. Is this a change from the new patch or was the old data just incorrect?

Old data was incorrect.

I may be mistaken,but wasn't the alchemy bonus 3% per rank a few months ago? Did the G13 patch nerf it down to 1% per rank?(I'm referring to alchemy bonus damage/efficiency,not synthesis or fragmentation success rates)

Edit: crap,nvm,didn't notice there was already a discussion on this... new talk page organizing is confusing.

The JP wiki says Alchemy Mastery is +1% damage per rank. Is that something new in G13, or is our data wrong? http://mabinogi.wikiwiki.jp/index.php?%A5%B9%A5%AD%A5%EB%2F%CF%A3%B6%E2%BD%D1%2F%A5%A2%A5%EB%A5%B1%A5%DF%A5%DE%A5%B9%A5%BF%A5%EA

The data currently listed on the NA wiki is correct for NA at this time.