Unreleased Content

Let's just get to the point.

1. Skipped Content. If you want to get rid of it, say yes or no and post why. If you chose to get rid of it, content that has not been released in a patch that was suppose to, will be removed.
2. Making a section or page for Unreleased Content/Foreign Content or keeping it the way it is, putting a tag above content that are not yet released. Chose whichever and explain why.
3. Completely rid of content that is not yet released on NA and only add it once it comes out. Yes or no and why.
4. Show all unreleased content. Yes/no and why.
5. If we do have Foreign/Unreleased Content, should we stay exclusive to Korea only content or also include content from other servers such as JP? Yes if non-KR is okay. No if we should be KR-only (if at all).

If you have any other issues or another option, post it and explain it. You can also just agree with another.

-replies to self-

1. Yes. It creates false hope, misinformation and we can't ever be 100% sure anything is if ever even skipped.
2. I prefer keeping it the way it is. It gives a general idea of what we will get, but whatever listed shouldn't be too detailed. It should be kept simple.
3. No. Because of number 2.
4. No. Because of number 1.
5. No. Stay exclusive to KR, unless KR gets it themselves or any commentary by NA indicating we will get it.

...Are you trying to say #1 is yes? Because your answer and explanation contradict each other.

Bleg. 8I Was thinking of the question differently. Even though I wrote it.

1. No skipped content shouldn't be removed if we get things out of order. False hope is at the fault of the reader and if they still have false hope after we say it may never come out, it is at their fault. I do not think this would be a good reason to censor future content information.
   
2. I do not want to keep it the way it is, but I can agree with both a section or a page specifically for Unreleased Content. Of course, I'd rather keep things the way it is than delete the information altogether like #3, but making a change would be ideal in my eyes.
   
3. No. See 1.
   
4. I can agree with Yes and No, but would prefer Yes.
5. Yes, because we do get content from JP. A number of things in the past, the most notable being the "Rush of Love" sidequest chain used to get Fighter skills, is in NA and I think pretty much every server BUT KR.

Victim blaming is stupid. Don't be stupid.

That's just a fact. Its your job to pick what to believe. It's your job to do research if you want to make sure what you believe is right. It is your job to keep yourself entertained. It is your job to assure you get what you want. That being said, the only thing "stupid" is to assume others are obligated for your cause. Others may choose to help you, like the wiki. If you choose only believe part of what we say and completely ignore the other, even giving another obligation to someone else, that is nobody's fault but your own. The wiki is meant to help, if they don't want the help, then its their fault for refusing help.

And please do not call people stupid, please instead describe what you think they are doing wrong. Internationalization, please.

Victim blaming is inherently stupid and the people that practise it are stupid. As people in our position of instructing it's our job to do what we can to make sure that people are instructed with as little misunderstanding as possible. So if people get the wrong idea rather than blaming them we act so as to make sure there won't be future misunderstandings.

If I say "Morgan and I built a wardrobe" and someone chooses to only read "I built a wardrobe" even though "Morgan and" is no more or less legible, then that is their fault. I do not see going around that.

Yes, but what if it wasn't clear that Morgant also built the wardrobe? Which in case point, is the problem with "Skipped Content" and any Content that wasn't added in previous patches.

+1. This is why you're low quality Pyro.

Yes, but the wiki also holds up misinformation because of "Skipped Content".

Which is the purpose of this thread, to correct "Skipped Content" into hopefully "Unreleased Content" or "Foreign Content".

But I don't want "Skipped Content" to turn into anything. I want it to die. Do you see my point of view?

1 - Do not get rid of it. The purpose of a Wiki is to hold information regardless. NA doesn't make all it's content alone. It takes most of it's content from overseas, and overseas gets most of it first, so knowing what might come out eventually (and a rough chronological order) would be helpful. Skipped could easily go into a sub-page.

2 - Make it a sub-page. The main page should only have content that applies to NA since it's an NA wiki and the page is a chronological release/update order list. However updates from other regions can come to NA even if unexpected, and being able to gather and format info on potentially upcoming updates is good, so having an official sub-page in order to keep it accessible seems best.

3 - Do not get rid of them. It may not be in NA yet, but having pages for people to fill out what info we do know of means that when the updates hit NA people have a head-start on filling the pages with info, which benefits both the readers and contributers.

4 - Yes, but on a sub-page. A wiki is designed to hold information, and while unreleased content may not directly apply to the NA version of Mabi, the unreleased content can hold insight into existing/upcoming NA content/changes and may reach NA eventually.

EDIT: 5 - Yes, with the same reasoning as above. Non-KR content has less chance to get ported to NA, but less chance is not no chance, and I like data availability!

1 - Do not get rid of it. The purpose of a Wiki is to hold information regardless Incorrect. 4 - Yes, but on a sub-page. A wiki is designed to hold information, and while unreleased content may not directly apply to the NA version of Mabi, the unreleased content can hold insight into existing/upcoming NA content/changes and may reach NA eventually. False.

While I'm certain you possess a proper definition of "wiki", you should probably avoid ridiculing others for their opinions in this section where they were simply asked to vote and defend.

What do you consider the purpose of the wiki then?

“	This wiki site is based on the Nexon game called "Mabinogi." This site provides as much information as possible about the game.	„
—Mabinogi World Wiki:About

As much information as possible.

Yeah a single outdated definition isn't going to help you here (case in point, recent actions and policy regarding shitty information).

Kapra, understand the good line between Good information and Bad information.

And you forget, this is the 'NA Mabinogi wiki. Not the some other server and if we add that into it, then other server info is on a fragile line.

Good or bad information is in the eyes of the beholder. If we're not going into too much detail on something, and the information is not incorrect or misleading, I fail to see why something would be considered "bad information" outside of someone's personal views.

And you're telling me all the trivia you posted wasn't bad information?

As I said "Skipped Content" is bad information. It's bad because it misinforms. If you think misinformation is in the eye of the beholder, then obviously something isn't right with you.

We all agree that the name Skipped Information is misleading, hence the entire purpose of this thread.
And All the trivia I posted? Almost all the trivia in this wiki was posted by Infodude. If you're referring to me adding Bread from Nao onto pages, I was just reproducing what Infodude did on other pages because I'm anal and do not like inconsistency. May I remind you I'm not the only one who does that kind of things.

Edit: And just to add on to this, I never said I am a saint. I may have added incorrect information or misleading information in the past, and I have. It would be foolish fallacy to say I am an exception to any rule. What matters is looking back and saying "Oh, what I did there was wrong", like I am doing right now with naming it "Missed".

The entire purpose of this thread for you is to change skipped content into some other thing with the same god damned content. Because you're so willing to keep information we are not 100% sure of.

If you wish to question a specific piece of information you are not 100% sure is correct, then make a thread for that, one thread can only handle so many issues. Things like bullets of information that are incorrect need close scrutiny and to be done case by case. This thread is assuming any content we did not get that we write about has facts that are true, and no opinions, and as detailed as possible as to not get to the point where it is too detailed. The same standards as the rest of the patches page.

Dude. Just. Dude. I don't think I can ever find someone so stubborn and freaking clueless about the things we discussed and posted.

Let me write in bold for you so that it goes through your thick skull of yours.

Skipped Content is a completed flawed section as it has information we cannot even say that they were skipped. if they were ever planned to be released in NA. or a glitch or some sort. or purposely removed by Nexon it self. or an exclusive content.

Which is why I and others have been suggesting a "Unreleased Content" section which applies to all of the above except for a glitch that has been confirmed to be a glitch. I get that, you get that. I get that you don't want any updates or parts of updates we get out of order or have no confirmation to get at all, and want foreign content to stay it is. Lets just get out of this cycle of confirming the same thing over and over again as if the other person is saying something different, okay?

But how do we know it's "Unreleased"? Maybe it's just exclusive.

By my definition, exclusive content is unreleased content. Unreleased means it is not released. If its exclusive to other servers and not NA, then it is not released.

And guess what Kapra. Guess what the opposite of unreleased is? It's "released" it gives nearly the same effect as "Skipped Content" it's false hope.

If you're referring to giving false hope by saying Exclusive Content will never be released to servers not in the "in", Doppelganger/Shadow Bunshin was initially exclusive content to JP and TW, it was also initially labeled foreign content on this wiki despite not being from KR. It was later released over a year later(?) worldwide to all servers, no longer being exclusive content and no longer being unreleased content. There is hope. Although it is wrong to create false hope, legitimate hope is okay. Though I guess this will now become a debate about what is false hope, so before you say anything, to me false hope is hope where there is a 100% chance that what is being hoped for cannot ever happen. Legitimate hope is anything 99.99% or less.

If you want to make sure people on another website don't say they are entitled to something, removing information on what they say they are entitled to should never the correct solution unless the information itself is faulty, nor should the solution be kill all hope unless it is said that there is 100% chance no hope of ever getting content, such as Nekojima.

We also got told well prior that we'd be getting Doppelganger.

Touche, but you can see where I'm coming from at least?

No because I don't think we should have a Foreign Content/Skipped Content section at all.

I'm not killing hope. I'm killing false hope.

Know the difference.

And do you agree with my definition of false hope and/or legitimate hope? If not, what is yours?

Who on this god damned wiki even ****ing cares about the definition of false hope and real hope? The general consensus is that people are currently believing in things that are neither truth nor lies, there is absolutely no certainty. That's why it's false hope you numbskull.

And what if it does come out? Well good for them, they got what they wanted. No one is hurt, yay.

And what if it doesn't? Then they believed in absolutely nothing. NOTHING. Then people complain about how NA Nexon took away what is "RIGHTFUL TO THEM" and blah blah blah.

This is starting to sound like a bad debate on religion. Lets shift the conversation then if you want. Does it really effect the wiki's interests to censor information in favor of stop people on another website from thinking something?

Yes. If it turns into vandalism and I'm up any day to remove information that is useless to the NA server.

Vandalism is practically completely random and could happen on any page for any reason or even no reason at all. There's no reason to remove something just because some random person might want to randomly mess with a random page on the wiki. They'll do it someway or another, and the only thing we can do is correct it when they do it. It's not an excuse for removing things.

Even if it's 'useless'?

An information is considered useless if it is false, misleading, has too much or too little detail (objectionable), or is in the wrong place (in this case, then you move it to the right place, not remove). That being said, in this case the only thing "useless" would be the name of the section, not the content, so your question is redundant.

"Skipped Content" is misleading.

And I still don't want content that wasn't added that during previous updates because then it's still misleading. "Unreleased" still sounds something along the lines of "Oh, this still hasn't been updated yet."

Then at this point we're making a "Foreign Content" page.

"Unreleased" sounds like something along the lines of "Oh, this hasn't been updated yet" because that is exactly what it is. That is what the majority wants so far. "Oh, this hasn't been updated yet" does not mean it will and must happen, it mean it hasn't happened but could, that's sort of the point.

Most of the people in this thread are in favor of a page specifically for Foreign Content if a section for it is not viable, Rydian for example, as well as Meru I think.

Then you're basically admitting that "Skipped Content" = "Unreleased Content". So now I'm against Unreleased Content as well. Congratulations.

Oh yes, most of these people and you know how many people this is? 5. 5 people, you're basing 'majority' with 5 people. Good job man.

By my definition, Unreleased Content can include but is not limited to:

• Content updates from other servers that we have not gotten (yet).
• Content updates from other servers that we DID get, but did not get the same things of.

By my definition, Unreleased Content does not include:

• Events or cash items from other servers. The Patches page does not cover that, but I wouldn't reject the idea of making a Patches-like page for things like that, but I probably won't contribute or have the enthusiasm to do so.
  • For example, if an item is obtained from an ingame shop like the Commerce Shop, then it is "Unreleased Content" for the patches page. If its an item obtained from an event NPC's shop or from a gachapon or directly from the cash shop, then because it wouldn't be on the Patches page if it were released, it wouldn't be on the Patches page's Unreleased Content section if it is not released.
• Content that NA specifically said we will never get, such as Nekojima.
  • My only exception to this rule is if we are comparing things we do have to things we were told we will never get, such as comparing Doki Doki Island to Nekojima. Though, the patches page doesn't do that so this thread doesn't pertain to that.

So yea, Unreleased Content can include "Skipped Content", but not necessarily the other way around.

And a supermajority of 5 is still a majority. How many people did you expect to respond to your questions? 30?

5 is still an extremely small number comparing to the list of wiki editors. And who on earth said this was based on votes? I asked why for a reason. Ridney or whatever had a terrible reason, which was "All information belong on the wiki." You of all people should know thisbbetter than anyone else considering how much you protected trivia. His vote is as moot as his reasoning.

And if you still haven't noticed, I dont just want the skipped content section to be removed. I want all evidence of "skipped content" removed. Which means all content we didn't get in previous updates with the same reasons i've been repeating for hours. It's misleading and it doesn't belong on the NA wiki

I'm not sure why you keep saying I defend trivia, I cannot remember the last time I advocated for any piece of trivia besides one specific line on the Bread from Nao page.

That aside, I have two things I want to discuss with you.

Rydian never said "All information belong on the wiki." I urge you to please re-read his post, and tell me or him what you think is flawed in his logic.

I also do not really see the difference between "Skipped Content" and "Foreign Content". Why should we have one and not the other? Lets be consistent.

He said the purpose of the wiki is to hold information regardless. It's pretty much the same thing as "If it's related to Mabi, add it." And yes that is completely flawed. Just because something is related to Mabi, it doesn't make it important to the wiki,

When did I say they were different things . _. I also dont want Foreign Content either, it's useless to the wiki. But Foreign Content is possibly the most broad term for "Things we don't have and we're not sure we will get. Because they're foreign." But I repeat this again, I don't want to see that happening because some people may decide to detail it in every way possible. Creating more "Will we get X?" From players and simply because this is the NA wiki. Unreleased and Skipped Content both sound like "Things Nexon didn't release." Thus my issue.

"Just because something is related to Mabi, it doesn't make it important to the wiki."
Why not? Please give me an example of something (that isn't a lie) related to Mabi (that doesn't break the policy) that should not be on the wiki and explain why. (It doesn't have to be something that actually happened before.)

Events on other servers, where to find Mabinogi merchandise and paraphernalia, address of Devcat studios, other providers of Mabinogi. Version number of other services. A lot of information is rather irrelevant in any place on this site. However, we should not feel responsible for, or feel the need to control, the potential thoughts and interpretations of our users. There is never such a thing as fool proof.

The presence of information of unreleased content is not necessarily technically helpful, but also not necessarily harmful if we present it in the formal manner that we usually do. It may not be needed, but there is a non empty set of people who will certainly appreciate it. As Saiyr mentioned below, the "Patches" page is certainly not the best place for it, so we should definitely remove it from this page. Beyond that, it is not entirely harmful to recreate the information intelligently on another page.

-stares at all the deleted trivia-

Shakespeare's plays are one.

@Nise Panda/Sakura (I'm not sure which of your guys' names to use)

I said "related to Mabi".

@Shroom Fonzerelli/WhitePass

It has been suggested in the past to have a page like the Patches page for the release order of NA Cash Shop Items, Gachapons, Events, etc. Of course, this hasn't been done mainly because nobody wants to spend effort on that. If such a page were to exist, then other server's events/etc could be mentioned there if we resolutely agree that other servers' updates could be mentioned here. Merchandise and addresses aren't relevant to the game, unless such merchandise or anything you obtain by going to the address would effect your game (such as getting a prize code for something, which we do do in some cases.) Other providers of Mabinogi, I don't why this is not relevant. But yea, I see your point. Our goal is to not control or persuade our readers, its to inform. Whether or not we think it is helpful, we just need to try to be as helpful as we think we can without messing up the information.

As I have said in this thread and other threads in the past, if the information is not harmful, incorrect, etc; but is just in the wrong place, then lets move it to the right place or make a right place.

Kapra, I don't think you know what Trivia is anymore. Trivia is RELATED but unimportant facts. If it wasn't related, we wouldn't add it.

And if you want me to continue that list, speculation and theories don't belong on the wiki, even if it's related to Mabi. We has plenty of outfits KR and JP has but we don't ever mention them.

We don't talk about the differences between events. KR's balloon event rewards were different from ours and that doesn't belong here.

On the contrary, I do not think you understand what Trivia is. By definition, trivia is important information where relevance exists but is difficult to tie to the subject. Do not confuse trivia with the slang definition of being a sense of insignificance, wikis and the wikipedia do not use this definition. If the reason you keep bringing up Trivia into this thread is because you consider Unreleased Content to be Trivia, then yes, I proudly advocate Trivia. Information needs a place, if we cannot put information in a proper place in a page or give its own page, we should put it in Trivia until we can decide a place for it. Lets get down to what is important and not argue over definitions of a word, please.

Speculation and opinionated views do violate the wiki policy, though.

We do not mention what outfits NA has that another server has due to lack of effort and enthusiasm, not as a rule or norm. Likewise with what other servers got out of events. If nobody is willing to provide information, they do not have to. But if someone is willing to provide information, they should be allowed to. What SHOULD be regulated is where the information they provide is.

https://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/trivia http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trivia http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/trivia http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/trivia http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trivia#English http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trivia?r=66

In conclusion, I disagree.

By definition, trivia is important information

From what god-forsaken dictionary did you take this out of?
In what possible, if any, context would this hold true?

"But if someone is willing to provide information, they should be allowed to."
No they shouldn't, for various reasons. The policy renewal reflects this to certain degrees.

So, uhh... How about that status unknown box that I would like :D... Says nothing about unreleased or released. A good old box saying we have no idea what's going on with this content, but here it is in case you wanted to know! Even if it isn't here, it will be elsewhere, and people will still be complaining all the same. It's expected of them by now. I recall when the information wasn't on the wiki, they just linked to mabidata instead or just copy pasted all the information from it. We won't be stopping false hope at all, just redirecting it. Everyone's going crazy about ninja stuff, but it sure isn't here on the wiki. I'd rather have the wiki as my one stop place of information. If it helps I can deal with Imbored's suggestion. Even if the content doesn't happen, it's still nice information to have. I don't think the wiki users would want it to go away either. Maybe big red letters telling them not to give their hopes up would help them. I like big red letters :D... Also, I think it's too late to take it away now. Everyone already knows about the future content. It can not be stopped, mwuahahaha. Maybe some vandal will enter all the information anyway. People will believe what they want to believe. I think the reallll question is why doesn't korea want to give us a meager little shield? I saw a gm with a tortoise shield, and he was waving it around. Also, long ago a girl got replacement clothes from a game master. They were supposed to be premium summer wear, and they were, but it was a completely unreleased to this day version. Just going on and on now, so I'll just end it now before I keep typing. Thank you and good night. There's just nothing we can really do to actually solve this. Also, is saying this content isn't released and may never be released, really wrong information to say? I mean it is right in saying that. As long as we keep story line and skill updates here, I'll be good I guess. We should at least have those because people like to plan out their skills. Yes, this post is all over the place and filled with things no one cares about, isn't it?

I hope you know Imbored's suggestion is as good as removing the content entirely and posting it once it gets released on NA. "Hiding it" makes it completely invisible to the readers and you can only view it by opening up the editing, that's not easily accessible information considering how messy the editor is.

premium summer wear is a terrible example, because that's not even a patch. The vandal happened thinking the wiki was telling information about how Free RB was skipped is legit. I can care less about outfits, because they don't even belong on this page and I can care less about how other websites tell the same info, my issue is people using the wiki like a source for these kind of things. The difference between mabidata and the wiki is that, people take the wiki very seriously at times.

Sometimes it's not even Korea that decides not to give us something. Sometimes it's just Nexon. Sometimes it's just a bug. Sometimes it's licensing issues. etc. etc. There is never any clear reason and most of the time Nexon will not answer to why. Why are we even bother adding information who's fate and future we have no clue about? Especially when it's certain content that should(I'm using should very lightly) have arrived in previous patches?

If you think it's false at least answer why. I do agree that a wiki's job isn't just to hold information and if the information is wrong, it doesn't even belong here. Which is the problem with "Skipped Content".

The "why" is fairly obvious and follows what I said. It's not the wiki's job to just hold information. A lot of the recent editing has been all about that. A future content section in the context of listing patch updates is qualitatively unhelpful and actually doesn't offer that much insight. Significantly more helpful are forum threads and the like which discuss upcoming content in detail but we don't do that here even for content we have.

Then your problem isn't with foreign content or whether we should include it. Your issue is the quality of pages such as Patches which list changes/additions with each update.

I'm not sure how I need to explain this to you given that you didn't get the general idea the first time around.

In a nut shell, the inclusion of "Foreign Content" will impact the quality of the page by nature of it not meeting the needs of the wiki sufficiently.

1. Keep if renamed to "Unreleased", avoid "Skipped" as "Skipped" implies we should already have it. "Unrelased" provides hope in the absence of confirmation. The banner should say there is no indication (similar to "in the box" games). But as this is not the role of a wiki, we should not lose sleep over it. Exclude if in doubt.

2. Label confirmed future content "Future Content". Let people know what we know is coming

3. No, unless it can't be confirmed. As stated, it looks good for the wiki to be ready on day one of an update.

4. "Pokemon Paradise Party!" is unreleased content. (everything unreleased by #1 should have a source)

5. I'll say yes for the remote chance that we might potentially even generate our own content (I feel this may happen because fail message changes). We may overlap with other versions in odd ways and times. (also question is awkwardly phrased)

1. Yes. There is no such thing as "skipped" content, and I still stand firmly by it. Each region chooses what they want to release when or if. Otherwise, we should be putting in information that KR doesn't have, but the other regions do (like the Mabinogi Open Market in Japan, etc).

2. If #3 cannot happen, then yes. Otherwise, no.

3. Yes. This is a wiki for this region of the game. I really do not believe that a wiki needs information that is not in the game (unless it's something minor that is a difference between regions that would normally be placed in the Trivia Section). Doing this will cut down on people believing every word (you have to treat the readers like idiots, harsh, but it's the truth). I don't see other game Wikis putting in info that isn't released on their service like Mabinogi does, and they do just fine. If players want to get their "unreleased fix", then they can go scour the foreign websites. I would not be opposed to keeping unreleased content hidden however, to cut down on the time to edit pages when they do go live in this service of the game.

4. No. See #3.

5. If we do have Foreign Content, then yes, include the other services of the game. There is no reason for it to be selective on what is added and what isn't. Basically, all or nothing.

Minor tangent here but, what is Mabinogi Open Market?

New issue #5, if we do have Foreign/Unreleased Content, should we stay exclusive to Korea only content or also include content from other servers such as JP? Yes if non-KR is okay. No if we should be KR-only (if at all).

My argument for #5 is is Yes, because we do get content from JP. A number of things in the past, the most notable being the "Rush of Love" sidequest chain used to get Fighter skills, is in NA and I think pretty much every server BUT KR.

I'm a hypocrite, I brought the subject back up in the thread I said shouldn't discuss it. But we might as well while we're at a vote.

The Mabinogi Open Market (MOM for short) is basically the Mabi equivalent of the Maple Trading System. It's currently only found in JP. Due to what happened to the MTS and how it affected other games, I'm going to bet that we'd have a better chance of getting FMA and SAO.

I'm not good with links, but here's the link to explain it (in Japanese of course). Japan's MOM Sorry if I didn't do it right.

Time to go fix my post then for #5.

Actually pretty sure KR got Rush of Love.

I'll test that later, I have a character on KR Lute. But either way, that was content initiated in JP and not KR that came to NA before it came to KR (assuming it came to KR). Thus, I don't see a reason to discriminated between content from one server and another.

Added it in the original question post.

Ugh, I hate formatted questions like this, but whatever. 1. No, don't remove. I still see no real reason to remove it. 2. Yes, sectioned area for this please. We have been given this information, and we should have it available for others to view. 3. No, information that has been formatted in such a way that everyone knows it might never come out would be the best way to have it. 4. Yes, if it is a huge update with skills and part of the story it should definitly be here. People like to see what's coming. 5. If it's a major update like an entire skill set I don't see why we shouldn't no matter where it's from. Isn't nexon hq in japan now?