Trivia Dilemma

The npc is female thing probably refers to how your character wields the staff with female poses even if male.

If that's the case, then it should have been reworded as "The NPC that accompanies you uses female postures." or something similar :x

Either way it doesn't need to be mentioned; its pointless and trivial.

There's a lot of pointless and trivial things on this page. Doesn't mean someone might not want to know or would ever find out if it wasn't mentioned.

If it's pointless and trivial then it doesn't belong.

And who decides what's pointless and trivial? If it was me, this page would be about 20 lines long.

Then it's a good thing it's not up to you.

Meru, exactly what are you talking about?

I'm getting quite a few complaints about removal of trivia and fun facts, and I agree that it's just silly to remove them when so many people enjoy them, myself included, just because someone here hates information. Anyway here's some pointless and trivial things on the page: Dungeon 1 says "the golem" several times, tips on fighting golems are on the golem page and don't need mentioned. Mentioning that the NPC skills ignore cooldowns is silly because it's like that for every single monster ever. NPC can cast thunder and ice spear with no charges just like every other monster. At infodude's post below here, his last 2 points are pointless, and the skill is definitely not stomp. You say if it's pointless and trivial it doesn't belong, but you want to add pointless and trivial info yourself.

• Mari only has select Golem countering skills.
• Not everyone knows NPCs/monsters have no skill cooldowns, though I agree it's not really needed.
• ^, not everyone knows NPCs/monsters can freely use magic.
• If its not stomp, what is it?
• How is Life Drain doing more damage with less HP considered "pointless and trivial"? The less HP you have, the faster Uroborus dies.
• Again how is fixing something inaccurate and Grim Reaper not getting stunned during its attacks "pointless and trivial"?

• Those select golem countering skills and techniques should be on the golem page.
• It's on the cliamh solas page.
• It's on the life drain page.
• its on the grim reaper page.

• Yes but it should also be on here.
• And it say stomp.
• Same with golem. Also not everyone knows that.
• Grim Reaper outside of this event can't be stunned at all.

I don't see why you're so against mentioning advice on this page...

• So, if that should be there why can't trivia?
• The first one says stomp, the second says dark flame.
• If they don't know something about a skill they can go to the skill page.
• False, the normal grim reaper can be stunned, I've done it numerous times.
• I don't see why you're against trivia, but not stuff that doesn't need to be here.

I could probably agree with a few tips for golems with mari since she does only have the bow as a reasonable option. Careful use of magnum and counter and all that. Note that the golem tips do not include tips for ranged because it's generally not recommended.

Aside from that the tips seem generally concise and useful for this particular event (perhaps the tidbit about seal scrolls is unnecessary)

Has anyone observed their NPC clone dying (would it cause mission failure)?

Clone dieing does nothing. It says right on the page. Mag counter has always been a recommended way to defeat golems for archers as far as I know.

• I'm not the one who's against trivia, its the admins and the staff. If you have a problem, bring it up to them.
• Since when could Grim Reaper be stunned? That never happened right when G13 was released (looking at some videos dated to G13's time).
• Let's look at this from a different perspective. Say, would a newbie automatically know to look at the other pages when coming here?

I'm bringing it up so hard right now, right here. It's the point I was trying to make with this whole discussion. I don't really care if you put helpful useless information here, but if you don't want to put information that others might find interesting to know, not necessarily info you yourself find interesting, then why put this extra info here that isn't really needed either. There is a reason why this wiki has such a bad reputation, but I won't get into that. When I hear multiple people saying the wiki is missing this information, I go and try to fix that and then tell those people I fixed it for them trying to get trust into the wiki as a source of information they can count on for what they want to know about.

• Yes, the grim reaper could always be stunned. Always.
• The newbies are accessing a wiki full of information, if they have questions on how to beat a certain monster, they can check that out. If you're that worried about those poor souls who can't seem to read or find anything on the wiki, you can put 1 line saying check "page" for info on how to fight this boss, along with specific tidbits specific to this event boss. Just like we always do.
• Why are you talking in bullet points now?

We're removing some trivia because some of them are way too long. I don't mind if a trivia is 1 or 2 sentence long. But when the trivia section is longer than the rest of the page or when the trivia section is just a mere comparison with the original source(Chapter 4 NPCs were victims of this). Some trivia were also quite stupid(Mammoth's page said that they were extinct animals, Yeti page said that they were cryptic) and some were simply wrong and made up.

I won't mind if the comparison is short. Like, Morrighan, but if you look at Juliet's page and the sort of trivia she had it was exessive and not needed.

Now my opinion related to this page, if it's useful keep it. The tips is specifically for the event and ways to do it efficiently, it's a guide. If its useful to completing the event, add it. If it seems unnecessary and only adds a block of useless text that no one cares about, remove it. I don't think people are obliged to go to another page to read information when we can make a perfectly good guide here. Guide and Tips =/= Trivia.

What exactly is the problem with comparing to the original source? I see no problem with it since it is relevant to the game. Some people really like lore and such details and would like those comparisons back. Most of the points on this page aren't specifically for the event and are just general tips that are stated many times elsewhere and are unnecessary especially when we link to the bosses on the very same page here and it has all that info there. I'm all for trimming pages, but trimming just to trim is silly. People like details and that is what they come here to find out.

Nothing is wrong with comparing the original source. But when it's practically as long as the page itself, then it's a problem. You might as well be reading the original screen play.

A trivia isn't a summary, but this was sadly the case for chapter 4 NPC trivia. The trivia basically consisted of summarizing an Act of the play. If it was something more along the lines of "Charater X's original role in the play was to..." And etc. it would be more appropriate as a trivia than describing the differences of the Mabinogi rendition of the play.

If it gives you an idea, one of the comparison trivia was that character X didn't face mobs during the original play.

If it makes him happy maybe I'll make a page comparing the Mabinogi and original Shakespeares.

Keeping it on your user page is fine. Placing it anywhere else will not be fine. All I can say is Trivia will be regulated to some degree and will be pruned/cleaned up/reword/etc. Keeping it minimal at best.

Obviously.

Why must trivia be kept minimal? If there's trivia to put in, it should go in even if it makes the main article smaller in comparison.

It gets out of hand, and eventually has speculation, which is something we're trying to avoid.

I doubt anyone will allow you to make such a page. I can already see Cute and Greave smacking you with insults. Runescape might as well write in bold letters "our rendition of Romeo and Juliet isn't the same as the original."

On the other hand, exploring Mabi lore sounds interesting. But that's not the point of this discussion.

If you ask me, as long as it's not on a main page and on a user page, it's fine. Not like User Pages need to be regulated, granted you still want to look out for things such as vulgar content and anything that is an outright "nope."

Yes it's fine on user pages of course. I like the comparisons, too, but starry eyed information isn't what the main article space is for.

No one minded when I made a user page for Vindictus, I don't see why anyone would mind Mabinogi Lore or Shakespeare.

Oh the things you do not know.

I think that would be okay as long as we have something for everyone who would want to know instead of just completely deleting everything. This started because someone didn't want a trivia section here at all. I can understand deleting x didn't fight mobs. But you're also saying here in this topic that redundant info and guides should go in this event page and at the same time saying other things like trivia don't belong at all. I also don't think discussing things only on the elitist irc or the forums and not here is a good thing. Just saying.

I don't know about redundant info, I personally didn't read this page that much. but a guide/tips seems actually appropriate for this event considering how many first timers have trouble with it. The other problem I have with asking people to look at other page for more info, is that sometimes they still can't find it either way. Peaca Abyss not affecting Peaca Daily was something my friend couldn't find on the wiki(so I ended up adding it in the Abyss pages) it's more quicker for some one to find all the info they need on one page.

And I just said, guides and tips are not trivia, they are two completely different things. Trivias are not important to the game, it's more fo fun and I have no problems with trivia as long as they're actual trivia and isnt a complete summary of things. But I don't intend on improving the trivia section, if you like the trivia section you can do it, all I'm managing is removing useless trivia or excess trivia.

Okay, lets settle this now. Decepticons, what do you think should be kept in and left out?

On this page, or trivia?

Why does only the decipticons opinions count.

He probably wants to hear our opinions, since he heard yours I guess. Then I suggest this question is about the page.

Not strictly my opinions, but I'm getting tired of people complaining how something should be done about this to me, and I just got a little heated up.

Have them contribute directly instead of through you. That's really the only way their opinion can rightfully be heard.

because that is essentially their role on the wiki, no?

This page; I'm done talking about trivia. And I've already heard Meru's opinion so its time to hear others.

As far as I can tell, they just help the admins delete and move stuff because most of them don't bother with the wiki content.

There's really only 2 admins and us moderators carry out the will of the admins. Of course there's also judgement calls and we handle them to the best of our ability. I don't make the rules, I just follow them and heck, I still feel like a regular user...only with special privileges lol...

I think that the words of a moderator is just as absolute as an admin's, at least that's how I view it.

I don't think anyone's word should be absolute, and that we should all try to be on the same page with what's going on. We all in this together.

@Mikaya Cobsidering we've been most likely chosen for being active editors that doesn't screw up as much. Feeling like normal editors with special delete privileges isn't surprising.

@Meru Depends on where the word comes from. If its already in the policies, than no matter how you think of it, it's absolute. If it's something we've come to a conclusion a while ago, then it becomes absolute as well.

Policy and conclusions can change you know, they have many times recently even, too. I still wouldn't consider it truly absolute.

Image policy is pretty much absolute.

Have we even recently drastically changed the policy? I know we changed the wording, but that's nothing new.

There's some things missing from the policy if anything I'd say. We skimp on image policy sometimes. I'd use the policy as a guideline to quality if the wiki wasn't so stiff on it. Black and white could be preferable on some items for bringing out details that get muddled in the images we have. The topic is almost completely derailed in this chat branch.

When do we skimp on Image policies . - .? I mean I don't always check the recently uploaded images to see whether they're taken or not, but when I see mistakes I ask people to retake em.

You can literally go down the clothing lists and see several clothes that need better pictures, and I did check to see if those parts were dyeable. Even if it's not black and white, the color schemes chosen hide details and make it hard to tell different dyeable parts apart much worse than black or white would, such as http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Luxurious_Crystal_Dress_%28Female%29. I've seen black dyed ones that show the details quite nicely. Even then, there are still several black and white pictures, if that matters. Black/white and picture quality shouldn't be the only thing to look for in bad photos. (The hover over to see the clothes worn is a nice feature and helped me zoom thru this, when it works that is, thanks admins). I also believe we shouldn't use little characters for pictures either. People also don't seem to replace the item icons when they redo their photos either.

Then throw a or on it. You can't expect us to stalk the recent uploads like hawks. And you can't expect most of us to replace them, because we couldn't even if we wanted to.

And personally, I rather not remove the Black/White policy or make any exceptions to it(unless the item is forever black and or white) because it seems like that would cause conflict and make people wonder when or when is it not okay. And I find find your argument for the lux dress moot, because it can be applied the same with any dark color. You see plenty of details on the previous image: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/images/archive/9/9c/20120522192041%21Luxurious_Crystal_Dress_%28Female%29_Equipped_Front.png

And if you think image policy should be updated, why are you even asking here? .-.

Two years ago is hardly a recent upload. I don't expect you or any of the wiki contributors to replace them, besides the one who uploaded the picture. You asked where we skimped on policy, and I gave you one out of many. I hardly doubt removing the black/white policy would cause any confusion as long as we say don't have colors mess with details. My point is hardly moot when I wasn't saying it had to be black. I was just stating an example of when black should be okay. I'm asking here because you started talking about policy being absolute and me disagreeing and you wanted me to give examples. I can replace most of these images, but I'd prefer not to unless this is sorted out because a lot of them don't even need to be replaced, but according to policy, they have to be replaced. Also, I don't know what throwing an or on it means, and as far as I can tell, the wiki contributors DO stalk the recent uploads like hawks (mostly, it's you who bothers asking them to redo their photos, and I can respect your hard work on the matter).

Then it's not even us that skimp out on the policy. It just happens because the editors don't pay 100% attention to it. But policy is still policy and everyone who knows it should follow it.

Your point is moot because you can do the same thing with darker non-black colors or lighter non-white colors.

I stalk recent uploads, when I can. I don't do it constantly. I'll miss certain images because I can't see them all. You'll see me warn players, but you can't expect me to check every single image in the wiki.

I don't like exceptions because then it'll give people more and more reasons to use it. 8I And that only gets more and more annoying.

Just because we can do the same thing with darker non black or lighter non whites doesn't mean we should have to. There is no reason at all that black and white should be completely forbidden, and if you can do the same thing with other darker or lighter colors, then why not let people have black or white when it's the exact same thing? It just creates problems where there are none. Your point about my point being moot is moot because you aren't seeing what I'm saying. You do warn people, and they upload new pictures, but the icon picture still stays rule breaking, and for some reason that's fine.

So if you don't like it, go make a thread to change it. Also still because I don't like exceptions to rules, because this only gives more and more opportunities for people to abuse it.

I don't even know why Icon pictures are suddenly mentioned. But okay.

Icon pictures were mentioned because, even though they contain white or black, you yourself have made an exception and have allowed them for some reason. http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Butterfly_Suit I even went and looked at the uploader's user page. You were there posting, but you said nothing about the white being a problem, or the problem with the color scheme not showing well the different dyeable parts. I was looking at the butterfly dress icon when I went to the uploaders user page, but butterfly suit was the topic, and I found it to be an even better example. The wiki policy says item images shouldn't have black or white. Are equipment item icon images not item images? I also don't see where you're getting me wanting exceptions, and even if there were exceptions, there would still be no more opportunities for people to "abuse" it than there are now, regardless, people already don't read the wiki policy when uploading their images. Let's just end this sub sub sub sub topic here, and I'll make a topic someday when I feel like talking about this again. I'm not trying to be mean or rude or anything, so I'm apologizing if I come off like that. Not upset at you either. Even though I bring terrible topics up, I don't really like all the conflict in them. I'm definitely not the arguing type. /wall of text

At the time I didn't even know that much about the dyeable parts of the outfit. Which is why I didn't question it. I left it there and forgot about it. Derp. There are plenty of perma white and black items, which is why I didn't question it. That and I haven't seen a single other Butterfly Suit.

And I say again. I'm not a hawk and I'm definitely not an elephant.

There would be problems, by allowing them exceptions to use black and white. People would use it wherever as 'exceptions' and knowing what kind of people are out there, this will happen.

and no offense, but I call BS on the non-arguing type.

I do get fired up in arguments, but I'm not a good arguer is what I mean, maybe saiyr remembers from years ago when I brought up problems on the irc a lot, in fact, I think I talked about this problem there too, but no one said anything to it. I wasn't active on mabi or here in April, but I'll try to help you out. I'm just a questioning person, I guess. The thing is black and white aren't the only problem colors. Any color could be a problem to have in some outfit, and don't forget about overall color scheme making it hard to tell dyeable parts. If you aren't sure if that part is dyeable you can ask. I do have a problem with white in that case there.

Black and white is just a problem in 99% of cases, so it has a specific mention in the policy. The point is to not erase detail, of course.

(ps. this thread is so huge I don't know where to reply omg)

That "super zoom" crap. Just saying.

I swear that it was also mentioned somewhere that they don't want the head partially cropped out as well.

The head being cut out was never a policy. It's more of a personal preference, heads in mabi never change sizes, so you have a better visual of the equip or something.

“	I swear that it was also mentioned somewhere that they don't want the head partially cropped out as well.	„

And where did I mention it being in the policy?

“	I swear that it was also mentioned somewhere that they don't want the head partially cropped out as well.	„

lol

I actually linked that in the IRC earlier 8D

Nise's response? it's from 2 years ago, so it doesn't count.

Wiki is for helping people, I have no problem with a guide/tips that's easy to read and go through.

I like to have less repeats in a page. If X is mentioned else where, we don't really need X somewhere else.

As for other details like how the NPC character has the female staff pose. That seems more trivial than anything.

Yes, trivial things in the trivia section.