Talk:Windmill

Previous talk articles have been archived ~kotarou3 ^TALK_CONTRIBS 04:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

WM radius + splash upgrades? and/or kb bonus?

Does WM's reach increase with splash upgrades? -- ladywinter ~{talk | contribs}~ 04:07, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay this "Windmill does not receive any bonus from using a two-handed weapon. It has been proven that both the radius and range are the same no matter which weapon you use." I'm willing to believe, tho I would like to see proof of it in a test someone does. What I'm more curious cat about is that fact that it's difficult to wm with daggers because the knockback is less than that of 1h slow weapons. As many 2h swords have "very slow" as their speed, would they cause a markedly greater knockback response? -- ladywinter ~{talk | contribs}~ 22:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Enemies get "stuck" longer depending on the weapon speed. Fast weapons have the enemy recovering super fast, whereas a 2h leaves an enemy stuck down long enough for a player to use potions and fully load another windmill before they can even recover. Dual wielding weapons will make enemies recover faster as well. Splash upgrades do nothing for windmill. Any "increase" in windmill size is actualy because windmill's hitbox registers on even 1 pixel of the enemy's hitbox (bigger hitbox = bigger target reticule) while most attacks calculate from the center of an enemy's hitbox so it can seem like windmill has a larger radius against larger enemies. Tellos 23:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

"whereas a 2h leaves an enemy stuck down long enough for a player to use potions and fully load another windmill before they can even recover." This. Is highly useful info. TY! -- ladywinter ~{talk | contribs}~ 00:38, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

whats radius and range?

it says that there is a diference between windmills radius and its range, annyone care to explain what that diference is?

Range is how far the windmill goes out. It's the same for everyone with Windmill, and changes at rank 5 and 1. Radius is how far it goes out based on model size. Although a Golem's WM range is the same as a player's, it seems to have a bigger range since the Golem is so much larger itself. --- Angevon

I'll help, how about we say that the "Radius" is how far out enemies will be hit, and the "Range" is how close they have to be to the character to activate the skill. Frjam

so, only range increases at ranks 5 and 1, and range stays the same?Sozen Cratos Focker 10:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

They technically the same thing: How much area WM covers -- Fruitrecruit

Not really. Range is affected by the rank of the skill. Radius is affected by the model size of the character. --Kevin 04:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

so does a 17 year old have a larger wm radius than a 10 year old? Sozen Cratos Focker 04:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I think to clarify this, examples are needed.

The RANGE of a rank F windmill is the same for everyone and everything. However, a smaller sprite will have a smaller RADIUS than a larger sprite.

Using an Age 17 Potion at age 10 will increase the RADIUS of the windmill.

Likewise, using an Age 10 Potion at age 17 will decrease the RADIUS.

Another way to look at it is this: Although the RANGE of Windmill is different for ranks F and 5, a 10-year-old with rank 5 windmill will have roughly the same RADIUS as a Paladin/Dark Knight with rank F~6 Windmill. --Zephyre 21:07, 22 February 2009 (PST)

wow, this was posted here less than a week after i gave up on wating for a real answer... Sozen Cratos Focker 06:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, it can be noted that at rank 5, an elf age 11 still has more range than an age 17 giant with r9 wm (probably only by 1 mm/pixel). The further range was tested earlier this week (shortly after aging up), but not the exact distance. --Sinnoaria 06:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Can we get a clear explanation of this on the main skill page? It doesn't make any sense to mention that there's a difference between range and radius without explaining what that difference is. --Inemnitable 19:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

i was kinda hoping whoever answered my question here would think of that and do it, but they didn't, so i guess i will...Sozen Cratos Focker 19:30, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay okay hold your horses. Here is the simplest description between Range VS Radius. First, we need a new term, "wm distance" for clarity. WM distance is the "range/radius" you can hit things in.

RANGE is the BOOST/MODIFIER for WM. This is obviously determined by the skill (and thus 'same for everyone'). Look at the table, the ranges are 100%, 120%, and 150%. Notice they are percent values, not an actual measurement of distance.

RADIUS is your BASE WM distance. This is the actual measurement of distance (this changes based on model size, larger the model, the larger the radius).

The final WM distance is determined by RADIUS * RANGE.

I am editing out the current misinformation on the wm page. I am an extensive wm user, and there is no difference between activation distance and the distance you can reach, they are one and the same.

--Sephiros 00:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually I have very rarely noticed times when a stationary enemy just beyond the activation distance of my WM gets hit when the WM itself goes off. In the most recent case though the enemy was a Giant Bandersnatch so I'm wondering if this has to do with the enemy's hitbox. Regardless, I feel it warranting a mention.--Mystickskye 02:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

To end this, radius is changeable by your characters size. Range is added from the edge of your character.

Wait a second. Why does the chart say the RADIUS increases with rank, if the only thing that's supposed to increase is the RANGE? --Doomsday 04:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

In terms of mathematics the "range" here is actually circumradius of area + constant range of wm, the area varis to character volume divided by base height. Thus the circumradius of area can change, but not the radius (which is the actual meaning of range in the article). The "radius" in chart means the (total radius - circumradius of area) = constant number.--黄恒升 ^{☞ 评论 ☜} 09:02, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Did someone extract this information from the game Data? It seems kind of bogus to me. Wouldn't it make more sense from a programming standpoint to set the range to a constant value by rank and simply adjust the radius to compensate for the varying hitboxes of the different races? --Inemnitable 12:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

And what exactly do they mean when they say the range is the 'booster or modifier' of the skill? What is it boosting or modifying, and how are you able to determine that? --Sephy 23:38, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's exactly what i said, hopefully you guys know the definition of circumradius (which means the radius of the base of the hitbox in this context).--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 21:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

What I'm not understanding is what the difference would be. Wouldn't there just be a certain range based on the size of the character model? If so, why does there bother to be two different parameters which pretty much mean the same thing? --Sephy 03:36, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

One is based on the Windmill Skill. Another is based on the Character, age/trans/blade. -- ladywinter ~{talk | contribs}~ 04:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, so you're saying that one of them is a fixed amount, the base range, whereas the second is a variable, and that it's not a single fixed amount. I think I get it now. --Sephy 06:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

We mainly get that hitbox increases apparent area of windmill. However, melee will hit the perimeter of the hitbox (just outside of the sprite), whereas range and magic hits the center point of the hitbox (aka 0 range). The radius outside the hitbox is constant. The hitbox just adds to the windmill area because the monsters is bigger. The same goes for stomp.--Hengsheng120·^TALK_CONTRIBS 17:29, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Very long thread here. I had to look up a few terms to attempt to understand this, but I think I've got my head around what Hengsheng120 was saying. Do correct me if I'm wrong: the 'Radius' is the base units of distance provided by the skill, and the 'Range' is a percentage of the circumradius (the radius of the circle which passes through all the vertexes) of your character's hitbox that's added to the radius to obtain the final radius. Domirade [Tarlach] 16:59, 23 November 2010 (PST)

I've never actualy seen any definitive evidence suggesting that model size has anything to do with Windmill size in terms of the player skill (Monsters have their own version of the skillwhich is model size based). As a 10 year old, a paladin, and a 17 year old I've always had the same radius. The only size difference I've seen actualy comes from the target's hitbox since windmill hits an enemy as long as any part of the enemy's hit-circle is in windmill's range (mabi uses circular hitboxes) while most skills register from the center of the hit-circle. Tellos 23:07, 25 November 2010 (PST)

Human Rank C Advancement

Hello, I'm rather new to Mabi, and I've been training Windmill... the requirements listed for a human to advance Windmill from C to B is a bit... unusual. It lists seven requirements, when in-game six are displayed. In-game, what's listed:

• Attack a similar-ranked enemy
• Defeat a similar-ranked enemy
• Defeat a powerful enemy
• Defeat a very powerful enemy
• Attack several powerful enemies
• Defeat several powerful enemies

Countering is not listed as a requirement... HOWEVER, it seems to be more due to a typo in-game. The last two requirements remained hidden until I actually perform them. What confused me was when I killed 4+ STRONG enemies simultaneously, it only listed the 6th requirement, the 5th remained hidden. Then when I did a Windmill counter, the 5th requirement was revealed. And I did another Windmill counter, and it was completed. So, it may say to attack several powerful enemies twice, but it's really to use Windmill counter twice. I didn't make any edits, because I wanted to discuss it first. --Chaud 06:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I've noticed this as well having trained windmill to 6+ on 4 characters. For some reason the requirement isn't always revealed even after its been done once or twice. You still get the training points though, so its nothing to worry about. Tellos 22:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

This is one of the few screw ups that Nexon made when listing the rank requirements. You may as well just leave it as it has been on the wiki. --Link 00:31, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The requirement for Rank B advancement has the same typo. The 5th requirement is also to use counter, but is displayed as Attack several powerful enemies. --Chaud 03:45, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

A bit late to the party. However, it's not as Tellos said. There are no training points for "Attack several powerful enemies" at all for the errored ranks (well, at the least, rank B and rank 8). Well at least, that's how it was. Does this still stand? I originally reported this back in 2008 and if the problem is still around two years later I'm not sure if it'll be fixed now.--Mystickskye 02:21, 10 December 2010 (PST)

Missing animation

Dunno if its that important to talk about, but there is more than two animations for windmill. there's a animation for 2-handed swords, and then for shields too possibly. dunno, just doesn't really seem like a big deal, but I find it kind of annoying. --Marthian 03:37, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

The shield animation is essentially the same as the blunt animation, and the animation for two-handed swords is the one for dual-wield. The dual-wield animation is the windmill animation done while wielding swords and/or giant blunts. Even if you wield only one sword, you'll still spin around that way instead of "breakdancing". The blunt animation basically applies for all other weapons (bare-fists, blunts, bows, cylinders, etc.) --Ryo 04:33, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

The animations are different. The 1-handed one is a clockwise slow spin, with the sword at an angle, while the dual wielding one is a counter-clockwise fast spin with the swords nearly straight out. --Sephy 18:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice observation skills...--Eastarmor 03:29, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Windmill's Damage Formula for damage between 2h and Dual wielding?

If anyone has a formula to figure out how much damage percent is increased with duel wielding than 2h, please add it, as it would help a lot of people in which weapons they would use. Aisaki 21:41, 10 October 2010 (UTC)Aisaki

There is no percent increase. For 2h's its your straight up damage * wm modifier, for dual wielding its Weapon A + Damage Enchant on Weapon A + Weapon B + Damage Enchant on Weapon B + Gear Damage enchants + Str bonus + Combat mastery bonus * wm modifier. Basicaly if I was using a 2h with r1 wm and the 2h had 140 max, and I had 200 str, +30 max on my gear and r1 combat, my damage would be (140+80+30+18) max damage * 2.5 or 670 max. If I was dual wielding 222 broads with Goddess' Obsidian (+50 str +8 max) then I'd do 73+8+73+8+100 (str bonus)+30+18 * 2.5 or 775 max. However, if I was dual wielding Goddess Caliburn (+18 max +20 str) I'd do 73+18+73+18+88+30+18 *2.5 or 795 max. Oddly with this setup, the Goddess' Obby broads would do 228 max, but the Goddess' Caliburn ones would do 227. Tellos 22:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

My friend fail

My friend dont stop to tell me that windmill is not a good skill, i tell him that is a good skill but he dont trust me, did he right ??

Hes main is Eltoro on Alexina —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaby5011 (talk • contribs) . Please always sign your comments with the button or by typing ~~~~!

• • sry forget that --Gaby5011 22:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

    Windmills a great skill if you have the time to rank it if not its worthless--Eastarmor 03:31, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

r7 unknown training method?

on my human, i have r7 wm and i have on many occasions killed several strong monsters and every time it doesnt complete the training requirement, does anyone know what it is and please correct this on page?

sorry forgot to sign that --Shadofrak 21:06, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

i did the math for my skill exp, and apparently there was a glitch that just didnt show that i had completed it, but my skill exp was still counted. it shows i have completed the training for killing multiple strong now so the glitch must have been fixed during the g14 patch--Shadofrak 01:54, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: NEVERMIND THIS TOPIC; DIDN'T REALIZE THE ZOMBIES BECAME AWFUL :(

I'm only getting .005 per Boss kill without talent. I'm not sure if it's because this character's a 5th generation since I don't remember training being this terrible on my 7th generation, but otherwise, this section needs to be updated. > _ <

Can someone at least try to record the data for that quest? Its been missing for ages.

I noticed in game that there's a discrepancy between the listed requirements for r4 Elf training and what my game requirements are. The skill seems to have been made easier to train, but I don't know if that affects other ranks as well or for any other races. I put in question marks mainly because I honestly don't know how to remove the training requirement from the other two sections for humans and giants, if that change could be made by another person that would be helpful.

If you are willing to do the work, here is a dump that you can parse through.

Base

6565 add(1,20,"Attack an enemy.");\nadd(3,10,"Defeat an enemy.");\nadd(10,2,"Counterattack with Windmill.");\nadd(30,1,"Attack several enemies.",false);\nadd(50,1,"Defeat several enemies.",false);

6566 add(0.5,30,"Attack an enemy.");\nadd(1.5,20,"Defeat an enemy.");\nadd(1,20,"Attack a similar-ranked enemy.");\nadd(3,10,"Defeat a similar ranked enemy.");\nadd(10,5,"Defeat a powerful enemy.");\nadd(10,2,"Counterattack with Windmill.");\nadd(30,1,"Attack several enemies of similar level.",false);\nadd(50,1,"Defeat several enemies of similar level.",false);

6567 add(0.2,30,"Attack an enemy.");\nadd(0.5,20,"Defeat an enemy.");\nadd(1,30,"Attack a similar-ranked enemy.");\nadd(2,30,"Defeat a similar ranked enemy.");\nadd(8,5,"Defeat a powerful enemy.");\nadd(8,2,"Counterattack with Windmill.");\nadd(30,1,"Attack several powerful enemies.",false);\nadd(50,1,"Defeat several enemies of similar level.",false);

6568 add(0.3, 128, Attack a similar-ranked enemy.);\nadd(0.6, 64, Defeat a similar ranked enemy.);\nadd(2.5, 32, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(3, 32, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(2.5, 3, Counterattack with Windmill.);\nadd(10, 2, Attack several powerful enemies., false);\nadd(25, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies., false);

6569 add(0.06, 320, Attack a similar-ranked enemy.);\nadd(0.3, 160, Defeat a similar ranked enemy.);\nadd(1, 100, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(1.8, 50, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(1, 3, Counterattack with Windmill.);\nadd(9, 2, Attack several powerful enemies., false);\nadd(15, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies., false);

6570 add(0.2, 300, Defeat a similar ranked enemy.);\nadd(0.6, 160, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(1.2, 100, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(1, 3, Counterattack with Windmill.);\nadd(6, 2, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(10, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6571 add(0.05, 600, Defeat a similar ranked enemy.);\nadd(0.25, 400, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.5, 200, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.5, 4, Counterattack with Windmill.);\nadd(3.5, 2, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(7.5, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6572 add(0.05, 1000, Defeat a similar ranked enemy.);\nadd(0.1, 600, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.25, 400, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(1, 100, Defeat a boss-level enemy.);\nadd(0.5, 4, Counterattack with Windmill.);\nadd(3.5, 2, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(7.5, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6573 add(0.025, 2000, Defeat a similar ranked enemy.);\nadd(0.05, 1000, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.1, 1000, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.5, 200, Defeat a boss-level enemy.);\nadd(1.5, 4, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(5, 4, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6574 add(0.025, 2000, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.05, 2000, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.25, 300, Defeat a boss-level enemy.);\nadd(1, 10, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(2.5, 10, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6575 add(0.01, 3000, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.02, 3000, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.15, 450, Defeat a boss-level enemy.);\nadd(0.65, 15, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(1.65, 15, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6576 add(0.01, 3000, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.01, 3000, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.06, 450, Defeat a boss-level enemy.);\nadd(0.3, 40, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(1, 30, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6577 add(0.01, 3000, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.01, 3000, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.03, 1500, Defeat a boss-level enemy.);\nadd(0.3, 40, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(1, 30, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6578 add(0.005, 4800, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.005, 4800, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.025, 2000, Defeat a boss-level enemy.);\nadd(0.25, 48, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(0.75, 40, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

6579 add(0.005, 4800, Defeat a powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.005, 4800, Defeat a very powerful enemy.);\nadd(0.025, 2000, Defeat a boss-level enemy.);\nadd(0.25, 48, Attack several powerful enemies.);\nadd(0.75, 40, Defeat several powerful enemies.);

Elf

7720 add(1,20,"Attack an enemy");\nadd(3,10,"Defeat an enemy");\nadd(10,2,"Counterattack with Windmill");\nadd(20,1,"Attack several enemies",false);\nadd(30,1,"Defeat several enemies",false);

7721 add(0.5,30,"Attack an enemy");\nadd(1.5,20,"Defeat an enemy");\nadd(1,20,"Attack a similar-ranked enemy");\nadd(3,10,"Defeat a similar ranked enemy");\nadd(10,5,"Defeat a powerful enemy");\nadd(10,2,"Counterattack with Windmill");\nadd(20,1,"Attack several enemies of similar level",false);\nadd(30,1,"Defeat several enemies of similar level",false

7722 add(0.2,30,"Attack an enemy");\nadd(0.5,20,"Defeat an enemy");\nadd(1,30,"Attack a similar-ranked enemy");\nadd(2,30,"Defeat a similar ranked enemy");\nadd(8,5,"Defeat a powerful enemy");\nadd(8,2,"Counterattack with Windmill");\nadd(20,1,"Attack several powerful enemies",false);\nadd(30,1,"Defeat several enemies of similar level",false);

7723 add(0.3, 128, Attack a similar-ranked enemy);\nadd(0.6, 64, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(2.5, 32, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(3, 32, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(2.5, 3, Counterattack with Windmill);\nadd(5, 2, Attack several powerful enemies, false);\nadd(20, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies, false);

7724 add(0.06, 320, Attack a similar-ranked enemy);\nadd(0.3, 160, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(1, 100, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(1.8, 50, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(1, 3, Counterattack with Windmill);\nadd(5, 2, Attack several powerful enemies, false);\nadd(10, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies, false);

7725 add(0.2, 300, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(0.6, 160, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(1.2, 100, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(1, 3, Counterattack with Windmill);\nadd(5, 2, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(8, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7726 add(0.05, 600, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(0.25, 400, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.5, 200, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.5, 4, Counterattack with Windmill);\nadd(3, 2, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(5, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7727 add(0.05, 1000, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(0.1, 600, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.25, 400, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(1, 80, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.5, 4, Counterattack with Windmill);\nadd(3.5, 2, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(7.5, 2, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7728 add(0.025, 2000, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(0.05, 1000, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.1, 1000, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.5, 160, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(1.5, 4, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(5, 4, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7729 add(0.025, 2000, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.05, 2000, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.25, 200, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(1, 10, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(2.5, 10, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7730 add(0.01, 3000, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.02, 3000, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.15, 300, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.65, 15, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(1.65, 15, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7731 add(0.01, 3000, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.01, 3000, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.06, 400, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.3, 40, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(1, 30, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7732 add(0.01, 3000, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.01, 3000, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.03, 1200, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.3, 40, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(1, 30, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7733 add(0.005, 4800, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.005, 4800, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.025, 1500, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.25, 48, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(0.75, 40, Defeat several powerful enemies);

7734 add(0.005, 5000, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.005, 5000, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.025, 2400, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.25, 50, Attack several powerful enemies);\nadd(0.75, 50, Defeat several powerful enemies);

Giant

8000 add(1,50,"Attack an enemy");\nadd(5,10,"Defeat an enemy");\nadd(10,2,"Use the Windmill to counter");\nadd(30,1,"Attack multiple enemies",false);\nadd(50,1,"Successfully defeat multiple enemies",false);

8001 add(0.5,80,"Attack an enemy");\nadd(2.5,15,"Defeat an enemy");\nadd(2,15,"Attack a similar ranked enemy");\nadd(5,4,"Defeat a similar ranked enemy");\nadd(10,10,"Defeat a powerful enemy");\nadd(8,2,"Use the Windmill to counter");\nadd(20,1,"Attack multiple similar ranked enemies",false);\nadd(40,1,"Defeat multiple similar ranked enemies",false);

8002 add(0.1,250,"Attack an enemy");\nadd(1,25,"Defeat an enemy");\nadd(1.5,20,"Attack a similar ranked enemy");\nadd(3,6,"Defeat a similar ranked enemy");\nadd(5,25,"Defeat a powerful enemy");\nadd(6,3,"Use the Windmill to counter");\nadd(15,1,"Attack multiple powerful enemies",false);\nadd(30,1,"Defeat multiple similar ranked enemies",false);

8003 add(1, 30, Attack a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(2, 10, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(3, 35, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(5, 24, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(4, 5, Use the Windmill to counter);\nadd(10, 2, Attack multiple powerful enemies, false);\nadd(20, 2, Defeat multiple powerful enemies, false);

8004 add(0.6, 60, Attack a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(1.5, 20, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(2, 60, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(3, 40, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(3, 6, Use the Windmill to counter);\nadd(8, 2, Attack multiple powerful enemies, false);\nadd(15, 2, Defeat multiple powerful enemies, false);

8005 add(1, 80, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(1.5, 80, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(2, 60, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(2, 10, Use the Windmill to counter);\nadd(5, 2, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(10, 2, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8006 add(0.6, 100, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(1, 50, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(1.5, 80, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(1.5, 6, Use the Windmill to counter);\nadd(4, 2, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(8, 2, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8007 add(0.3, 200, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(0.6, 100, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(1, 120, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(10, 3, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(1, 10, Use the Windmill to counter);\nadd(3, 4, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(6, 2, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8008 add(0.1, 500, Defeat a similar ranked enemy);\nadd(0.3, 170, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.6, 200, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(5, 6, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(2, 8, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(4, 4, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8009 add(0.1, 500, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.3, 400, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(3, 10, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(1, 10, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(2, 10, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8010 add(0.08, 400, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.1, 300, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(1, 50, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.9, 15, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(1.8, 15, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8011 add(0.06, 400, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.08, 300, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.5, 100, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.8, 10, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(1.6, 10, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8012 add(0.04, 600, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.06, 400, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.1, 500, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.7, 16, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(1.4, 12, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8013 add(0.02, 1300, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.04, 600, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.07, 700, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.6, 20, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(1.2, 16, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

8014 add(0.01, 2500, Defeat a powerful enemy);\nadd(0.02, 1250, Defeat a very powerful enemy);\nadd(0.05, 1000, Defeat a Boss-level enemy);\nadd(0.5, 40, Attack multiple powerful enemies);\nadd(1, 20, Defeat multiple powerful enemies);

Farix, that dump is wrong.

See here: http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4102/mabinogi20120428004.jpg

Just got to r4 WM myself. They added a 'defeat an enemy' requirement that's not in that dump of yours. It works as advertised, too, as you can see in my screenshot.

Herp. Looks like that screen got resized.

So far, I know there is:

R4: Defeat an enemy, +0.06, 400

R3: Defeat an enemy, +0.04, 600

That is for giants, of course.

For Elves, rank 5 - 3 (Most likely 1) do NOT have a plain "Defeat an enemy" requirements. I'm not sure who added that as one of the requirements but it sure doesn't belong.

It was changed, it USED to have it.

Wouldn't it be better to have any of those that 'must' be listed (due to giants needing it (?)) set to 0.00? Just seems a bit misleading with "??", like it's there, but needs to be filled in by anyone who knows the training requirements.

So i read on the page that Windmill misses and enters cooldown during the time u get knocked back.

However for me, there is a second method where this happens as well (i am not sure for other ppl)

Melee Knockback the monster, move forward slightly in range to windmill the monster on the ground, activate windmill while spam clicking to activate windmill ASAP, then windmill gets canceled and enters cooldown.--Teoh 00:47, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

yeah. windmill is very glitchy now with the dynamic shiz.

I think it was because they removed the invincible frames...

The only time for me that WM "glitches" is during it's normal function. WM as a counter attack, but i load WM when i am getting hit and don't have enough composure, (meaning i am not stunned) therefore it uses WM in place of me getting hit.

The training requirements for Windmill, Assault Slash, and Smash have all been changed as a part of this update. (Except maybe for rank 1.)

“	Not Defense, not Counterattack?	„

I don't know if they were altered or not.

Hum... is there likely to be an indication in the pack files?

Well...while we're were on the subject of changed training requirements, it seems Playing instrument has the homestead training parts removed.

I think that was intended for the Part 2 Update...

Is there even a difference between those two? o-o

no, not at all...though while we're on this subject, r1 windmill with knuckles is the range of rF it seems...that's a ballpark estimate.

It feels more like halved to me...

Maybe cause I'm using a giant...you know how height makes a difference qq *is short in real life*

Unless it was changed for like the 3rd time, being a giant (as in taller than humans/elves) WM doesn't get any range increase.

What???

“	Note that the Radius is the base size of Windmill while the range is the additional radius based on the size of the user's hitbox.	„

I think that's wrong. It's old information, too. I think I know how it works now. Inamomenteventtime.

I think that only affected monsters...or at least now it seems to be the case. Golem bosses have a giant radius.

*pat pat*

Try using it on a different character, unless they don't have R1 WM?

they don't x-x;

Question: Where did the initial range/radius values come from?

For Knuckles? Power of assumption!

... Can they even be found in the game's files?

That's why I'm asking. There's no reference to any of these range/radius values and none of themmatch the ingame files.

... Seriously how do people even test for Range...

You count the tiny number of pixels. LUL.

Well I'm gonna record a video of me (on my bro's char) of windmilling my main (qq) with a healing wand, then Bracer knuckles...then Repeat it a few times to see where I go with it...to maximize everything I kinda had to resort to..."Stuff"...to get a good view...qq screenshot mode doesn't cut it...

also I'm gonna get it to where it is at the farthest range possible.

*keeps patting*

Well, I'm on my brother's account and gonna test windmill on..well..myself...*testsubject* D:

Just wondering but should I upload it as well?

Forget the video...inconsistant attacks...so below I've provided 2 images of the most common end point.

For accuracy, I stood in the middle, where all the tilesets meet as the center of the hitzone of windmill.

Test was conducted with rank 1.

wat. doesnt seem like mine hits that far. :C

Seems like 60% though, if Mikaya's results are accurate.

I don't have a ruler. You should make both images properly align though.

You could try re-conducting the same test, but after doing the bracer knuckle r1 one, use a capsule from the event to get rF then after the test rerank it.

Or find another character with ranks F-6...

But this method would allow you to not change your camera angle, providing the most accurate results possible.

Ehh well...funny thing, I think my bro got on to the char before i did because I didn't get a reset cap...

To be honest, i'm not sure if I should extend the line to the center of my character's center.

the extra vertical red line is the approximation of my character's center.

Well...I think I'll just leave this here and edit the values on the summary page. good night x_x also I broke my dress while doing this. xD

Hmm....I wish I could find it but I'm pretty sure somebody already posted a video on the wiki somewhere testing the range. They killed a rat with a pet and they had the finish rule to anybody in party. Then they stood kinda close to the monster with WM loaded using knuckles and it said they were out of range. Then they switched weapons and loaded WM again...this time they could hit.

I dont remember seeing that :C

I don't know who posted it, but I know I found it from the wiki one day after fighter update.

The reason I didn't post a video was because:

• Displacement lag. Sometimes the range seemed short than it should be, and other times it seem to hit outside the maximum.
• Inconsistency with range.
• I did this with 2 high-end computers. However when my main moved, it didn't move on the other computer I was at until a bit later.

So... How come no-one's fixing it?

wat in da werld happened here.

The Rank 3 Windmill requirements have been changed, they have removed the "Kill Any Enemy" Requirement. I have confirmed that this is the case, need to find out if there are any more discrepancies. Have temporarily added "Changes to Windmill" so someone else can verify that I am not a crazy person.

Is it true that in G15 S4, windmill will lose its most valued invicibility that activates upon use? Even though there will no longer be any HP loss, that kinda sucks. I'd rather have invincibility than no HP loss.

someone said that later the invincibility was kept because of outrage...

Outrage? wth???? what do you mean????

I guess overseas Mabi players Q.Q'd hard and they got to keep it. That's going to be overpowered though if they also keep no hp loss. Windmill spam will become the new ice counter.

Also, invincibility or not, I'm going to enjoy spamming Summon Golem Windmill like hell.

How will it be the new IC?

You can't load Magic skills during the Windmill animation.

They would most likely keep Windmill as is if that's the case. But if Windmill keeps invincible frames AND no hp loss, the only thing left is to add a cooldown or let windmill lock all skills so you can't load into another skill...merely speculating.

Aw, no hp windmill could be fun. And by the new ice counter I meant that by virtue of being a popular safe tactic to use (windmill,reload windmill, repeat till dead), though i suppose ice counter will always be more widespread among beginners since spamming's not very effective without ranking windmill.

There's an edit war going on between me and Tellos on whether to keep the introductory paragraph. I think it's important to convey the fact that Windmill is widely considered to be a very useful skill and that it is extremely dependent on Combat Power such that waiting too long to rank it will make it extremely difficult to do so at all. Tellos has argued that the introductory paragraph should not be included because it is "subjective", "goes against the required tone", and "is useless clutter". I've read the wiki policy and I see absolutely nothing in there that says there is any guideline that sets a required tone or that demands objectivity other than the requirement that articles be written in the second or third person. Thus, I see no reason why it cannot be included. If Tellos thinks that some parts of it can be improved, I invite him to do so, but I'm posting here to protest his wholesale deletion of it.

Any encyclopedia must be written in the neutral tone. This isn't a Mabinogi FAQ or Mabinogi Walkthrough. Why do we need an introduction to the skill? I know people who have 1400+ CP who don't think ranking windmill is a big deal. I also know people who think windmill is a useless skill when compared against other skills. Simply put, the introduction is not fact its opinion. When writing the wiki what you think doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that the concrete information goes on the page and is easy to understand and complete.

Since when is this an encyclopedia?

Uh, since forever? I hope you'll notice the wiki in the address bar. Like Wikipedia, you cannot express opinions. Only factual information can be put here.

How does the fact that this website uses wikimedia software imply that it's an encyclopedia? I've been to plenty of wikis that allowed subjective material and this one has nothing in its policy against that.

introductions are good for new players who want a general idea of the skill without having to read the wall of text that follows. i agree that the previous introduction for windmill was slightly opinion based, but it can be edited...

You do know that a wiki is a "collaborative user-based electronic encyclopedia" right? While other wikis are free to do as they please, they have nothing to do with this wiki. This wiki will continue to maintain its professional appearance that many users have worked hard to give it. As for new players, as I have been saying this is NOT a Mabinogi walkthrough, it is a mabinogi encyclopedia. It does not exist to instruct new players on how they should play the game.

World English Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiki) "a web application that allows anyone visiting a website to edit content on it"

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki " a website that allows the easy creation and editing of any number of interlinked web pages via a web browser..."

And you still haven't cited any policy on this wiki that would support your position.

This is a mabinogi encyclopedia regardless of what you want to think. If you or anyone else makes subjective edits that are not within the encyclopedic tone, I will personally remove them.

I haven't stated any opinions that are outside of the guidelines specified in the wiki policy page.

One can make introductions with a neutral tone it isn't that hard. If I was new to Mabi I personally would want an introduction for the skill instead of reading through the article not understanding a thing it's saying. The intro is just a summary of the skill and what it does, not a walkthrough.

That is what the Details section is for. No intro is needed in that case.

"It should be noted, however, that while Windmill is a very useful skill, it is also one of if not the most difficult skills in the game to rank due to the large amount of monster kills required in order to rank it, and the fact that most of the kills must be against BOSS level monsters. Rank 4 for humans, for example, requires a minimum of 3,550 kills. For this reason, it is recommended that the anyone wishing to rank this skill do it early or else be prepared to purchase Combat Power lowering enchantments. " This, which was added in, is pretty much useless.

• "if not one of the most difficult skills in the game to rank" - opinion. It can be easy to some and hard to others.
• "Rank 4 for humans, for example, requires a minimum of 3,550 kills" - This sentence is useless, one could just look down at the page for rank 4 training and add them up.
• "it is recommended that the anyone wishing to rank this skill do it early or else be prepared to purchase Combat Power lowering enchantments." - Recommended, but not necessary. It's very possible to rank the skill with high CP and no CP modifiers.

• "'if not one of the most difficult skills in the game to rank' - opinion. It can be easy to some and hard to others."

All right I'll give you that. How about "is one of the most Combat Power sensitive skills in the game"?

• "'Rank 4 for humans, for example, requires a minimum of 3,550 kills' - This sentence is useless, one could just look down at the page for rank 4 training and add them up."

Just because all the data is there doesn't mean it can't be restated. Take Healing for example, the mana cost and healing amount are there, but why do we need the efficiency listed as well? Couldn't someone do the math on their own? Yes they could, however, it draws the reader's attention to a useful fact that may not at first be obvious just from looking at the numbers, or that may be easily overlooked. I'm pretty sure that windmill requires more kills to rank up than any other skill in the game, and that number provides context and a sense of scale for that fact.

• "'it is recommended that the anyone wishing to rank this skill do it early or else be prepared to purchase Combat Power lowering enchantments.' - Recommended, but not necessary. It's very possible to rank the skill with high CP and no CP modifiers."

It explicitly says "recommended". What's wrong with that? I'll remind you that as per wiki policy, the wiki's goal is "...to provide as much information as possible on all aspects of Mabinogi." I don't see why that fact would be excluded under that mission statement.

Because thats a matter of opinion. Opinions are not relevant when providing information.

You could always just take that part out and remake the introduction to be non-biased or subjective. And besides. Look at the upgrade paths on weapon pages. Some weapon pages have descriptions of versatility of weapons and recommended paths. Are these neutral toned?

Opinions are in and of themselves information.

Just because they are information, it does not qualify them as FACTUAL information.

An opinion is something that cannot be proven. How that is useful, I have no idea.

From wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn:

• a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty; "my opinion differs from yours"; "I am not of your persuasion"; "what are your thoughts on Haiti?"
• a message expressing a belief about something; the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof; "his opinions appeared frequently on the editorial page"
• public opinion: a belief or sentiment shared by most people; the voice of the people; "he asked for a poll of public opinion"
• the legal document stating the reasons for a judicial decision; "opinions are usually written by a single judge"
• the reason for a court's judgment (as opposed to the decision itself)
• impression: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity"; "I had a feeling that she was lying"

You just failed.

@kaede-kit "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty."

-Random House Dictionary http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion

I'd make the distinction between not being based on certainty and not being based on complete certainty.

If you can't understand how opinions are useful you have my sincerest sympathies since performing every day activities like choosing between two brands of cereal must extremely difficult for you.

@Wolven all the objective information is already listed on the page, so that is needless.

@Strill Opinions contain objective information on the judgement and logic of the person who formulated them. They contain no objective information about the subject outside inference. Encyclopedic tone requires that implication not be used because inference is subjective and therefore implication contains no concrete meaning.

Once again this is not Wikipedia. There is no guideline in this wiki requiring objectivity, no guideline requiring neutral point of view, and absolutely no claim is made anywhere of being an encyclopedia. All of those claims are entirely based on your opinion, which is ironically exactly the thing you're arguing against.

My claims are based on the tone required to convey concrete information. "The Rules of Definition" so to speak. So I'm not basing anything on opinion.

Fact: This is a Mabinogi Encyclopedia.

Fact: Encyclopedias have specific content guidelines which must be followed in order to ensure that the information contains no ambiguity or implication.

I am speaking purely in fact. The only opinion here is yours.

Fact: This is a Mabinogi Wiki. Nowhere is "encyclopedia" mentioned at all.

Fact: Mabinogi wiki has specific content guidelines enumerated in the Policy Page. It includes none of what you said.

I am speaking purely in fact. The only opinion here is yours.

One of the content guidelines is also that you must cooperate with other users. Simply put this comes down to majority rule until a policy is made. I will not be allowing any subjective introductions, and if an intro contains redundant information it will be removed.

Would you mind showing me where that policy is? I don't see anything about that in the Wiki Policy page. Regardless, it's me and Wolven who have made opinions for keeping the introductory paragraph, and you and kaede-kit who are against. Two for and two against is hardly a consensus.

In any case, this argument is going nowhere. I'll be contacting an administrator.

Question and Answer. Here you go. That is where anything gets decided. Also, quit acting like a brat.

I don't think the introductions are necessary. The details section should have all the info needed. In my opinion, there should be some mention of how reliant the skill is on CP to train somewhere in the details section.

All of you are being incredibly stupid, so just shut up until an admin makes a decision. Strill, you just seem to be whining that someone took your edit out. Wolven's actually made a good point. You, not so much.

Just to make a point, if you want to add an introductory paragraph to this page, you'll have to write one for every other skill to keep the wiki consistent. Also, I do believe that even though some things you have said are widely accepted Strill, they're still opinions.

We're not talking about adding an introductory paragraph to this page, we're talking about restoring the one that's been there for a little over a year. And as I've said, I don't see what's wrong with opinions. As Wolven said, there's opinions on the weapon pages with comments on the overall usefulness or versatility of each weapon, and I think that information is beneficial to the wiki.

If it's been there that long, I must be blind for never noticing.

As far as opinions go, I think it's better to stick strictly to the facts. This wiki, at the very least, is meant to be used as an informational resource. Opinions are best left in guides and whatnot.

If it's been there that long, I must be blind for never noticing.

As far as opinions go, I think it's better to stick strictly to the facts. This wiki, at the very least, is meant to be used as an informational resource. Opinions are best left in guides and whatnot.

Also, I'm pretty sure the only admin active here - Angevon, would agree with us ~◕Д◕ ^TALK_CONTRIBS2010:12:30:01:02 (Thursday)

Even so, it's perfectly possible to come up with facts indicating that windmill is difficult to train. One could compare the minimum and maximum number of monster kills required to obtain exactly 100 training experience and find that the maximum is much higher than the minimum. Or one could note that even looking only at the minimum number of kills required, windmill requires more kills than any other skill in the game to rank.

It's the same as the reason for including efficiency in the Healing table. Is the efficiency subjective? No, it's a fact. Is the decision on whether to include it in the table in the first place subjective? Yes. Anyone could hypothetically calculate efficiency themselves, but most people won't, and it's something people would likely overlook if it weren't in the table. In the same way, facts could be highlighted demonstrating that windmill is difficult to train. The decision to highlight them would be subjective, but the facts themselves would not.

Uh, efficiency ratios are standard measurements taken from the JP wiki (also used in other skills), which has repeatedly shown its reliability and validity (much more than this wiki, especially with the numbers tested and viewed by many more players than that of NA.) Oh and I am the editor that started the introductions. Had the introduction been kept, I would have removed the part about combat power in Windmill on my own, (in fact I was going to revert your edit when Tellos removed the whole thing) as it is not 1)not newbie friendly 2)does not flow with the rest of the intro; the intro cannot contain info on Combat Power and still be a intro, because it had nothing to do with the topics of what is previously said in the intro. Although the policy does not state anything about introductions, I personally have my own rules (on my user page) on making it:

• Write Introductions for all the skills. The intros must give more information than the article already has (non-redundant) and must sound (new) user friendly, explaining generally what the skill looks like, what it does, and usefulness.

Seeing that no one has added a new intro to skills since I last started, I would be in favor of removing them because I myself would never be able to cover all the skills. Also, I also thought that it was not possible to write an objective introduction and still follow the premises above.

I do however strongly object any subjectivity, or implied subjectivity in the in-game info (anything other than the intro) that could easily be stated in a neutral tone, especially with a recent editors edits and with past incidents, and I have no doubt that other editors are also frustrated by this. It is possible that the introductions may encourage such edits into the article and we do not want those type of edits to occur in the future. Thus, it is best to remove all the introductions so that such edits will be minimized.

The efficiency ratios weren't taken from the JP wiki. For one, the JP wiki lists them to two decimal places while this wiki only uses one. For two, I'm the one that put the efficiency ratios in the Healing article in the first place.

Revision as of 01:58, 9 April 2008 And how do you know user:Ziv did not look at the JP wiki and got the idea of HP/MP efficiency and rounded the decimal places? At that time, most of the info was only taken from JP wiki.

I am user:Ziv. I can't log on to that account for whatever reason, probably because the forums don't accept 3 character usernames, and not even the password recovery function works. I created a new account because it was too much trouble trying to contact someone about it.

Windmill's training difficulty is subjective because its possible to kill anywhere from 1 to 20 monsters with a single use (technically infinity, but 20 is about as much as you'll find in a single spot). So the rate it trains varies with the method used to train it. Efficiency on the other hand is the same all the time so it is in no way subjective. Every decision anyone makes is subjective so thats just a nonsensical argument.